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Why do so many automatic configuration systems set centers/rears to "large"? (1 Viewer)

Kevin C Brown

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I don't believe in "stereo" bass either. The only half convincing argument I've heard, is that the physical sound pressure waves can give a stereo effect. But I think that would be a negligible effect.

But even in a sub sat system, with a proper crossover, the upper freq overtones (harmonics?) will still come out of the left and right speakers.

Lance- I came really close to subscribing to AES once. (Audio Engineering Society I think. They have a monthly periodical with technical articles in it. Costs over $100 a year or something. Just felt I wouldn't get my money's worth from the articles I would be interested in, vs those that either I wouldn't have any interest in, or they'd be over my head. :) )
 

LanceJ

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Kevin: I used to read the now-defunct "Audio" magazine because they had some very detailed reviews of gear with extensive graphs, measurements, etc to go along with the (important) subjective opinions. I learned a lot from magazines like that, even if they were a bit dry to read.

btw: I thought you had to be a pro studio engineer or speaker designer to join AES - not true I guess?

As far as stereo bass: if someone wants to experiment, they ought to look around for a pair of those big floorstanders w/internal powered subs that were so popular in the late 90s (yes, I know there's a few still around :) - keep reading). I remember hearing Boston's VR975 with a 10" active woofer + 12" passive radiator and just a couple months ago, a pair from Polk at Tweeter. Both can knock out some very powerful/low bass even when located in the "wrong" place in the room (I think because of the pure brute force of *two* subwoofers operating at the same time). But they are quite large so aren't very popular anymore from what I can tell, but if a recording has true stereo bass, I'll bet models like these will reveal it!
 

Marti D.

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Lance,
You're two responses from THX are correct. As for Gary W. I worked with him back in 1892 on one of his Surround projects. He is SOOOOO into surround. He has made a good living telling everyone his desire for 7.1, 8.1 , 10.2 etc. . He obviously doesn't know the Post Sound business.
i know, I've been doing it for over 27 years! It's tuff with shrinking budgets, short schedules etc. In the real world, where are you going to have the space to put up 5 to 10 exact same size and type speakers?
I would follow the good advice that both THX responses gave you.
The reason for Bass Management is for those small satellite systems.
I would suggest making sure your system is calibrated. Most (80+%) of the home users that I visit have the sub WAY too loud! The movie doesn't sound anything like the way myself or my colleagues mixed it.
By the way here is MY Home Theater:
www.thedubstage.com

Take Care,
 

LanceJ

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Thanks Marti for your advice. :emoji_thumbsup:

All these years of hearing about all sats crossing over to a sub, then surround music comes along with its own set of rules and these automatic systems with their "advice".

I *am* inclined to stick with the traditional way of all small + sub, but after reading about how different receiver/player manufacturers have varying ideas of how bass management should actually be implemented (as described in that Secrets article linked to in Brian L's post) I still think that different configurations should be tried first before settling on the standard version, as long as the owner's speakers could handle it. I really did think there was one set of standards for b.m. that everyone followed, but I guess not. :frowning:
 

Bobby T

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There is one standard across all manufacturers that could be a starting point. THX receivers/pre pros' crossovers are sloped at 12db per octave. With this you would set the crossover 1 octave above what your speakers are capable of for a seamless blend between subs and speakers.And THX recommends all speakers set to small, bass out to sub. I would assume THX DVDs are mixed/mastered to work to those standards. Maybe someday DVD and SACD will do THX discs too, I doubt it but you never know.

I agree that other configurations should be tried before settling on the THX standard.
 

LanceJ

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Well, so far we have confirmation of the desirability of the all-small/sub configuration for most HT systems, but no real explanations for why those automatic systems - or really, their designers - have a different idea about the large vs. small bass management options.

And Denon's contribution is conspicuously absent.

I thought about sending this question to Harmon/Kardon & Onkyo, but I haven't really noticed any of their owners commenting about this issue, so maybe they are already in line with the THX way of thinking?

And as far as hi-res music surround sound is concerned: since so many players lack ANY kind of b.m. for this format, I would tell its owner that their satellites would have to include at least one 6.5" woofer for the "average" sized listening room. Or if the player *did* have b.m. for hi-res signals, it usually seems to be um.....messed up (I believe this is the more pleasant way of putting it :D ), so I would strongly urge them to try various small/large configurations to make sure they are getting the best sound. And also, to make sure that the center channel and LFE channels are not being thrown away (or not affected at all) when "no sub" or "no center" is chosen like some have reported.
 

Bobby T

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From what I've read on various forums, Yamaha and Pioneer are the leaders in auto calibration. Followed closely by Denon. I haven't read much at all about HK or Onkyo.

Have you sent an email to aydessy(spelling?)? They do the set up for Denon.
 

LanceJ

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I might.

In another thank you message to THX's rep, I mentioned a couple more issues, including one about surround music. BTW: anything in [ ] is something I added for this public version of this email (I really did start this thread to find about b.m. for movies, but I thought as long as I had someone "on the line" so to speak.......):

Me: "As I mentioned in the discussion, at least the EQ portion of many automatic systems seems to be useful. They may not be on the level of what Meridian of the U.K. sells, but it's gotta be better than just guessing by ear! And along with Infinity's R.A.B.O.S. bass "fixer" system :^) , I've been hearing a lot about an auto EQ box that Velodyne has been selling that can be used with any subwoofer (here's a detailed review: Velodyne SMS-1

THX rep response: "***I'm afraid I must disagree. While sometimes the Meridian and other systems do get it right, there are also times when it is in fact no better than guessing. Sometimes it is even worse than guessing. All
this assumes that you want more than one seat with good performance."


Wow, interesting. Though I'm not sure if ANY system could make every seating position an optimum one.

Me: "One last question if you have time: do you know if the processor chips to perform bass management on *high resolution* signals are very expensive?

Because it seems the only players & receivers that have them are in the $1,000+ range. And the players under that price - IF they even have it - almost always have really strangely configured b.m. systems: for example the xover is almost always permanently set at 120Hz, like for [many of] Yamaha's players. Or in the case of Pioneer's (out of production) $180 DV-563 universal player, for dvd-audio playback it was [reportedly] set at 200Hz!! Sacd was treated better & for that format it was [reportedly] set at 120Hz. Or, some players [reportedly] totally "lose" the LFE channel if you choose "no subwoofer". Weird. And the one manufacturer that was supposedly responsible for much of dvd-audio's hardware development, Panasonic, has [to my knowledge] *never* sold a player with ANY sort of b.m. system. Weird."


THX rep response: "No, the chips needed for high resolution bass management are not expensive. Why the player companies have failed to use a logical system is beyond me. The forthcoming revision of our certification
requirements for DVD players will offer guidelines for bass management but for a whole raft of reasons the only correct place for it is in the controller not the player."


Me: "Lastly, I assume you've read this paper written by some major heavyweights in the music production industry, including Elliot Scheiner, Bob Clearmountain, Bob Ludwig and George Massenburg:

"Recommendations for Surround Sound Production"

Links to it have been posted on quite a few audio forums already (I've posted it several times myself)".

THX rep response: "Yes indeed, read it thoroughly and have personally worked with some of the people involved. Everyone in this group, having been in the business for a very long time, suffers from what I call "stereo music studio syndrome". They mix at very high levels from a single position in the room which, in turn, is tuned specifically to the "taste" of the
particular engineer. This is a condition which bears no relationship to the listening environment found in peoples homes with the increasingly rare exception of the dedicated audiophile. Nothing wrong with trying to recreate such a highly specialized environment except that the
average person has no knowledge of the original experience and is unlikely to make the heavy investment in bass treatment needed for good bass control when one refuses to use bass management. Without the original to judge against it comes down to a matter of personal taste. That too is OK as a hobby but not something on which to base a best practices recommendation.

After a number of attempts THX realized that the music industry is so entrenched in it's old habits that the best thing we can do is recommend system architectures that work in residential spaces and offer four surround speaker solutions that strike a reasonable compromise with current 5.1 music practices.

OK, I'll climb down from my soapbox now. Thanks for listening."


One has to admit, fans of stereo-only sound reproduction have some good reasons to stick with their 2.0 rigs!

This may sound heretical to some here, but even with not-so-perfect bass reproduction, bass frequencies still make up only one portion of the music experience - all the rest of the music emerges from much less troublesome channels/physical locations. Because based on four years of personal 5.1 music listening experience, usually with systems with imperfect bass systems, for me 5.1 music has still provided a very satisfying experience.
 

Bobby T

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I fwe haven't already said it Lance. It's very cool that you are contacting all these manufacturers and sharing the results with us. Very informitive.
 

LanceJ

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Bobby: I guess because of my science nerd :) background* I always believed that if you want the most accurate info, go to the source. I've been doing that since high school back in the early 80s, for example when I would write letters to General Motors asking how a new feature worked on one of their new cars.

So with an all-small/sub system, it looks like maybe the largest satellite most people would need is something with an 8" woofer (and maybe 10" for a very large listening space). This observation is also partly based on a model JBL sells: Performance Series PT800

* and my science fiction background too, particularly stuff written by Isaac Asimov & Robert Heinlein
 

Bobby T

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It's still cool. I never even thought about trying to contact the OEMs for an answer. And with my setup it's going to come up large on the auto cal. So they would tell me cause I have large speakers capable of playing low frequencies.
 

LanceJ

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This is basically why I haven't bothered calling Pioneer about this. Because I what I really want to know is their rationale behind designing their system that way, rather than just something like "that's just the way it works".
 

Bobby T

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I read something in this months home theater rag that caught my attention. In the article about the new JVC digital amp receiver. I forget the author, but when he was writing about the auto calibration. He specifically mentioned that the JVC makes you set the large/small setting. What caught my attention is him mentioning he liked this because most auto set up systems mistakenly set his Paradigm Studio 20s to small. The Studio 20s are rated down to 36 hz. The point of this is now we also have a pro reviewer basically(in not so many words) saying set em to large if they are capable. It sounds like that is his common practice.
 

Kevin C Brown

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I usually take a "large" speaker as being -3 dB to 30 Hz. The Studio 20's can't do that. They are a bookshelf speaker. Rated freq response ±2 dB from 54 Hz - 22 kHz. Usually, when a low frequency "extension" number is given with no +/- dB numbers attached, it's usually taken as -10 dB.

They *might* be OK Large for music, but IMO, no way for HT.

Remember the point earlier about the *quality* of a speaker's low frequency reproduction. Good low frequency sound quality is all about driving air volume. And the Studio 20 with a 7" woofer just isn't going to do that good a job at it.
 

Bobby T

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Good points. That brings us back to what amounts of bass are steered to the main speakers in a movie soundtrack. And if the lfe is only sent to the .1 or sub channel.
 

Marti D.

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Bobby T.
In Feature Sound Mixing the mains get most of the work. The LFE does get some things sent to it but not constantly. Hope that answers your question.
 

JeremyErwin

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If anyone's curious, the 2006 THX Approved Equipment List (Theatre) is available here. A great many speakers with attenuated high end responses....
 

LanceJ

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Really? I don't know anything about those speakers that are on that list. Does this have something to do with that "Cinema Re-EQ" feature some receivers have that slightly rolls off the highs from some dvd soundtracks?
 

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