Why do American cars and trucks suck so bad? (1 Viewer)

[Robert_Gaither]

Andrew I don't know if they still are partnered with Suzuki but they were when I bought both of mine (one in '94 and the other used in 2002). I like them because they're durable (mechanical only, interior doesn't hold up), cheap/disposable, and easy to work on (very few computers and easy layout). The current models are now 4 cylinders (mine are 3) and I only know one person who has one and it seems to be durable from a mechanical stance. I do know that a friend of mine's father is a manager of a local courier/delivery company and they've ran a small fleet of them for over about 300,000 miles each with very few incidents. I intend to keep mine til it's ran into the ground.

 

[JamesED]

My friend's week old Mustang GT had to go in for service. He hasn't heard back yet, he suspects a bad fuel pump.

I laughed and thought of this thread.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Living in the heart of "Big 3" territory, I'm definitely in the minority as an import owner. After two terrible experiences with Chrysler products in the mid-80's, no one will ever be able to convince me to buy another one of their products. My last true "Big 3" vehicle was an '89 Ford Tempo, which I was not very impressed with -- although, to be fair I never had any major problems with the car.

Since that time, we've owned a 1990 Ford Probe (Mazda MX6 in disguise), 1993 Toyota Camry V6 (best car I've ever owned), 1996 and 2000 Mercury Villagers (Nissan Quest in disguise), and a 2002 Nissan Altima V6. We will probably be replacing the 2000 Villager in another year, and even though I have access to a Ford family discount, they currently do not make a vehicle I want to own -- the Freestyle is the only thing remotely in the ballpark.

Here's a funny side story. A few months ago, I observed a young male adult (probably 18-20) putting flyers on cars in our parking lot at work. I'm used to finding flyers for local businesses on my car often, and get irritated (it's littering, as far as I'm concerned). I asked him nicely to remove the one from my car which he'd just placed. It turns out his "flyer" was a political one, urging those of us with "foreign cars" to "buy American" instead.

Well, this is a pet peeve of mine, so the poor kid never knew what hit him. He now knows that (1) the Americans working for Nissan in Tennessee are very pleased that I bought my Altima, (2) my wife's Mercury Villager (which he approved of because "it's a Ford") is really a Nissan product, (3) the GM full sized truck parked next to my Nissan was made in Ontario, Canada -- not the U.S., and (4) the older Chrysler a few spots down had a Mitsubishi engine.

A friend's father once complained when I parked my Toyota Camry in his driveway. I asked him why he let his daughter park her car there. She drove a Ford Probe, and he didn't know it was really a rebadged Mazda. He's probably really unhappy now, since his daughter's husband now drives a Passat.

I also had a co-worker tell me she liked my Camry, but she could never buy a foreign car. She was getting into her Eagle Talon -- a rebadged Mitsubishi Eclipse!

 

[LewB]

Seems funny/ironic/sad that you stand a better than even chance of keeping an American employed by buying a 'foreign' car.
Guess that's what they call a 'global economy'. I refer to it as something else. I'll refrain from sharing as I don't want to be banned from this forum.

 

[LewB]

Here's a good example why the U.S. cars aren't what they should be.
The Ford guy is upset the Japanese are keeping the Hybrid parts for themselves. I hate to tell him, but that's called 'business'. You spend money on R&D to make your product better, then reap the rewards when your product is better thanks to your risk.
30 years after the last gas crisis and notorious bad quality, little has changed. Detroit has only figured out how to sell bigger gas guzzlers. Yeah, their 'initial' quality may have improved, but what good is it when the car starts falling apart in 2 to 3 years. It's still planned obsolescence. They did come up with the extended warranty scam though.

 

[RobertR]

I remember seeing a cartoon that showed a big American car with the bumper sticker, “Buy what America builds!”. Next to it was a Japanese car with the bumper sticker “Build what America buys!”. I think that sums it up nicely.

Thanks for the link, Lew. It is sad that Ford would rather bitch about not being given technology than develop it themselves.

 

[DwightK]

A coworkers 2wd chevy pickup just went over 600,000 miles on the original engine. I imagine he is quite content.

Almost 200,000 miles on my 1993 G20 and have had very little to conplain about. The SR20 DE motor is known for high durability which is one reason I bought that car in the first place.

 

[Kirk Gunn]

Definitely an interesting read Lew - Thanks.



Interesting he doesn't mention the amount of US Govt subsidies Ford, etc are receiving to develop these hybrids.... Ford, et al are not covering these costs alone. One estimate I received from an inside Project lead at Ford states each hybrid actually costs ~300k, most of it underwritten by US grants. While I can't verify that $$$ figure from independent sources, I have no reason to see him exagerrating that figure. Just some food for thought.

Wonder what the Japanese Govt is feeding their local teams ?

 

[Steve Schaffer]

I can't remember the last time I saw a car of any make with a failure due to poor assembly. Poor design, failure of an outsourced part, failure because the mfg. didn't specify the correct materials in a part, yes, but I just don't see badly assembled cars any more from any mfg. They all seem to have their act together as far as the job being done by the assembly line.

As others have stated in this thread, any nation's assembly line workers can produce a good product (UK being a possible exception ) it's a matter of the mfg sweating the details as far as design and specification of outsourced parts.

I am seeing more dumb design of little things leading to niggly failures. There's a seatbelt shoulder guide trim piece on 04 Siennas 2nd row seats that's been recalled because they tend to fall apart--not due to poor assembly or materieals, just a dumb design for a little joining clip. These and a few other things lead me to believe that the problem may be that some of these niggly parts are designed on a computer and approved for production without anyone actually checking out a prototype of the part to see if it's likely to fail in normal use.

A great example is the failure of the original Mercedes A-class (small car not sold in US) to pass the Moose test. Seems a preproduction model was tested by a Scandinavian car mag. which did a swerving maneuver to simulate accident avoidance (as one would swerve to miss a Moose) and the little dear flipped over. Seems Mercedes had designed the suspension on a computer and it was fine, but nobody ever actually tried a moose test in real life.

The upside is that all mfgs are really becoming more quality conscious and are issuing service bulletins and recalls much more promptly and frequently than in previous years.

I think some of the late model domestic makes are probably pretty decent these days.

I had a '91 Chevy Lumina from 93 to 98, put about 60k on it, had no more problems than the average 91 Camry would have had (I'm a Toyota dealership mechanic).

From what I've seen of the late model used cars we get into the shop for checkout, I still would avoid most Chrysler models though the PT Cruisers are pretty decent. Ford stuff is variable, recent Foci have been ok, Windstars were junk. Most GM stuff from about the mid-90s up is also pretty decent, especially newer designs.

 

[Danny Tse]

This is the way to build a car/truck....

BBC "Top Gear" torture of a Toyota pickup

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/prog28/toyota.shtml

 

[Jimi C]

Ford owns a very large chunk of Mazda, not the other way around, the Probe was mostly a ford car, the V6 Probe used the same engine that has been found in the Aerostar and Taurus since 1986.

If you buy any of these cars, you are putting money in Fords pocket -

Mercury
Mazda
Volvo
Jaguar
Land Rover
Aston Martin
Lincoln

Check out the Ford cars you can buy in Austraila, They still have the LTD and the Falcon. I would love to have a Falcon.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I realize that Ford owns a large part of Mazda (it was less in 1990, but that's not the point). My point was that people have a strange definition of what constitutes an "American" car. Some people think that anything with a Ford, Chrysler or GM logo is American, and everything else is an import. They think it's patriotic to buy a Geo/Chevy Prism, but unAmerican to buy a Toyota Corolla, even though they were virtually the same vehicle and made in the same plant in California. Or that it's great to buy an GM pickup, even though it's made in Canada, but bad to buy a Honda, which is made in Ohio.

We tend to keep our cars for quite a few years, so I prefer to buy something that has a better chance of holding up well for those many years. So far, my best luck with this has been with so-called "foreign" cars. I kept my 1993 Camry V6 for 10 years, and it still was like new when I finally sold it. In fact, it's still running great three years later (my neighbor bought it for his college-bound daughter).

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Unfortunately, I have to keep the Dodge for now. I am self employed and use it everyday now, and since it will be paid off next month w/ a final payment of $200 and some change, I'm gonna keep it for now instead of getting into another truck payment right away. As for the motorcycle, I'm gonna indulge myself in a decent used bike before the month ends. I'm eyeing the Yamaha 650 Classic V-Star. Just waitin' on a good deal to develop.

 

[Ray Chuang]

Jimi C,

The fact that Ford owns a large part of Mazda is the reason why the Mazda3 is designed on Ford's C1 platform, the same platform used on the Volvo S40/V50 and European Ford Focus models. The Mazda3 is a very nice car to drive but any car built on the C1 platform is expensive to build (especially here in the UAW-dominated USA), hence the reason why the US market didn't get the redesigned Focus.

 

[Brad_Harper]

The reality of the automotive industry is that most vehicles regardless of where they are made use the same parts. The brake module in a Porsche is the same one that is in a Chevy. Modules, brakes, radios, seats, etc are all supplied to the automakers from the same suppliers engineered to the same standards.

I think the big 3 are just being punished for the crap they put out in the 80's and early 90's. Toyota and Honda used to make crap cars too. The truth is that the big 3's newer vehicles are actually very very good. GM is #2 in the JD power quality survey. Only Toyota made better cars.

I work in the auto industry and have driven just as many bad Hondas as Fords. I don't think the assumption that the forgein brands are automatically more reliable holds up anymore. If you maintain you vehicle properly chances are that any vehicle can make it to 300000 miles.

 

[Ken Chui]

GM ranked second in the JDP Initial Quality Study, which is based on responses from owners and lessees who were surveyed after 90 days of ownership. However, for vehicle owners, I think the results of the Vehicle Dependability Study (which surveys results from original owners after three years of ownership) are more important. According to the 2005 nameplate rankings, Ford, Chevrolet and Chrysler are actually above the industry average of 237 reported problems per 100 cars, but they still trail Toyota and Honda. Lincoln, Buick and Cadillac are third, fourth and fifth respectively, with Lexus and Porsche just ahead in this study. The results are certainly respectable for 2002 model-year domestic cars and light trucks; the intangibles and subjective criteria (e.g. exterior and interior styling), IMO, are where they fall short.

 

[Sami Kallio]

Well, tolerance issues are exactly about quality, engineering and cost.

I had a conversation with a 3rd party (sub-contractor) who said they deliver to big 3 Japanese company and big 3 American company so it's not about the part quality. Turns out after a little roast that the "only" difference is tolerance levels, as the American company accepts higher tolerance parts. So in short, what doesn't pass the Japanese company's quality requirement goes to the American company...

 

[Kevin Alexander]

I assume you work for one of the "Big 3" there in Canada.

 

[Mark Paquette]

Oh please, the last GM vehicle I owned was a 2000 Chevy Silverado. After only 15k on the odometer I nicknamed it the oil burner because whenever I started it, especially after a day or two of sitting, it would smoke like crazy. I would normally have to add 3-4 quarts of oil between oil changes. Thankfully I only leased this vehicle and was very happy to turn it in. Before the oil burner, I had a 1997 Chevy Blazer that would leak water onto the passenger side floor whenever it rained or went through the car wash. Took it to the dealer several times and was told there was nothing wrong with it. Again, thankfully it was a lease so by the time the carpet started turning green from being wet all the time, it was time to turn it in.

My girlfriend has a 2005 Chevy Equinox, with an engine made in China btw. This one has already been in the shop for some major front suspension work due to a loud clunking noise that developed after only 5k miles. Also, when the vehicle is first started each day and is backed out of the garage, it jerks and sounds like the transmission is going to fall off when shifting into drive. Took it to the dealer, they acknowledged the problem, but have no idea on how to correct it.

I don't know if I would ever buy another big 3 automobile.

 

[DavidBL]

I am a mechanical engineer, we studied this phenomenon in college, and this is indeed the #1 answer to the question this thread poses. It wasn't always this way either. After WWII, a man named W. Edwards Deming (Google that name for more info) developed methods and theories of constant improvement and process control. The mighty US industrial machine wasn't interested, so he took his ideas to postwar Japan, who jumped all over it. It took a couple of decades to get it all down, but starting about the 1970's Japanese electronics and automobiles started the transition from being the butt of jokes to being universally recognized as a higher quality product.

It's all about process control and part tolerances, especially in critical assemblies like the engine and the drivetrain. If a design works perfectly when all of the parts are exactly the size the engineer designed them at, the closer real parts approach that ideal, the longer the car will last. It's just a matter of statistics that more Japanese cars are built closer to this "ideal" than most American cars. A small percentage of American vehicles get lucky and have a nice, tight set of parts-- that's why most people know someone who had a Buick that lasted 400,000 miles or whatever-- but taken as a whole any large group of Japanese cars will consistently be more reliable than a group of domestic cars.