Why 12" drivers can't be musical in the 40-80hz? (1 Viewer)

[Jones_Rush]

Jack,
If you thought that nOrh's comparison with the race car and dump truck was not accurate, please read this one, taken from : http://64.37.116.230/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=27443
"Were I disagree is about the fact that a smaller woofer will out do a larger woofer in accuracey and transient response. A larger woofer doesn't have to work nearly as hard as a smaller woofer to produce bass waves. A larger woofer doesn't have to move as far front to back as a smaller woofer. Think of it like driving to the grocery store. Say you need a bunch of grocery's. Would you want to take the smallest car possible and travel to the farthest store away? Or would it be faster to travel to the closest store with a vehicle with a payload large enough to carry all your grocery's. The goal is to get home the fastest with the most grocery's. Audio is the same, you want to get the woofer home(started and stopped) as fast as possible (if you looking for accuracey). A big surface area can carry more grocery's (or air if your a woofer).
Big cone...properly designed, will do a better job
than a smaller one.".
I think that nOrh's one is more convincing...

 

[Jones_Rush]

Jack, In such a small room like you have, how do you handle room modes ? your 12x13 ratio (according to math) will give a huge bass boost at around 43-47hz. Do you use an equalizer ?, Also, do you keep your 2 doors and windows open during listening ?

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Also, do you keep your 2 doors and windows open during listening ?

Not usually, but they may as well be, as "tight" as they are.
------------------
Link Removed

 

[Greg_R]

I don't even have 1 cd with a lower than 28hz signal. I guess you have to like organ music to need such extension.

Are you sure about that? You'd be surprised what low frequency information is hiding on your average CD. Bass drums and kick drums have very low frequency harmonics. Some of my friends who have mains that extend down to 23Hz felt I was full of it until they purchased a high quality sub and heard the difference. 16Hz isn't just for organ music any more...
Greg

 

[Jones_Rush]

"I'm still trying to find the perfect eq, but the Symetrix 551 looks like the one."
Why not the BFD ? I thought you said it was good. You can easily find it on the net for great prices,
It cost 1/3 the price of the 551, have 12 filters instead of 5, controls over frequency bandwidth. People who use it here, say that they don't hear any noise from it while using it strictly for their sub.
The only thing it doesn't have is lower than 20hz performance.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

The only thing it doesn't have is lower than 20hz performance.

Bingo.
------------------
Link Removed

 

[Jones_Rush]

Jack,
I'm sure you have your own reasons why you feel you need lower than 20hz bass, but let me ask you this:
Why Do you agree to risk your ability to better control your room modes only to get 16hz frequencies ?
The Symetrix 551 may be a great unit, but 5 filters might not be enough, (does the Symetrix has control over frequency bandwidth?). There are more chances that you'll succeed to do a better job with the 12 filters of the BFD.
16hz might be groovy, but think about this,
What will you prefer, a sub which has a very good in room frequency response from 80-20hz but none below,
or a sub which has (only) good frequency response from
80-15hz ???
Of course this is a hypothetical question, since there is a chance you'll succeed to do it all with the Symetrix,
although, it's definitely a risk.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Tyson,
I played around with modelling nOrh's Vifa driver in the size cab you posted. It does quite well for an 8", and I can see how you'd get 25Hz extension in-room when not pushed too hard. It's low Xmax (only 4mm) and Sd, and potential non-linearities/compression resulting from its necessarily small port are limiting factors as far as the volume capabilities. As you noted, it's not for high-SPLs. Pretty cool for what it is. Quite expensive, though, for what you get, imo.
------------------

 

[Robin Smith]

I am a big lurker who is simply trying to learn, and recognizes my lack of knowledge.
I have watched this jones guy goad many people in this thread, and now another thread pops up where he seems to be just plain antagonistic (and in denial about his Sybil-like behaviour).
Jack (and others), kudos to you for handling this with maturity and not relying on the old flame fest that happens on so many other boards. Despite what appears to be jones's repeated attempts to provoke you, you have continued to post well written, mature and informative responses (and I have learned a LOT from them so it has been partially useful, even if frustrating for you).
At this point I think you are fighting a losing battle as this guy appears to be a troll with little of value to say. If I were a mod, I'd be on the verge of banning him.
I just wanted to let you know that despite the frustration you may experience dealing with jones, I have learned much from this thread that I did not previously know.

 

[Jones_Rush]

about the idea to ban me:

I have learned much from this thread that I did not previously know.

Isn't this the most important part ?
I don't want to take credit for things that experienced people here said, but it seems that this forum is some kind of a DIY pantheon, where the gods are those with more than 800 posts, and anyone else who made less posts and dare to question their perspective should be considered to be a troll and should be banned right away.
If I didn't have the persistency to ask all the questions and completely clear up this subjetct, then I guess you couldn't have said a sentence like the above.
Again, I want to thank Gilvey and all the others for doing a great job of clearing up this subject (at least to me).
Please show me one place in all my threads where I have been acting with an uncivilized manner.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I just wanted to let you know that despite the frustration you may experience dealing with jones, I have learned much from this thread that I did not previously know.

Thanks. I didn't think anyone was still reading this.

 

[Poul Nielsen]

Robin,
Without delving any further into the futile arguments in this and other threads, I do think your remark about banning Jones was uncalled for. Even though his opinions may be different from the consensus here, and he may be on the stubborn side WRT keeping on fighting a loosing battle, he is right in that at least I have yet to see a post where he crosses the line between civilized behaviour and insulting/obscene rantings any further than the next guy...
My 0.02 $
Best regards,
Poul Nielsen

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Poul, I agree. This is a democracy. I suggest ignoring those that continue their closely-held stubborn opinions.
Jack, what really concerns me is that with this newly declared posting number, it looks like I'm years away from attaining HT god status (470 posts since 10/14/98). I'm bummed...

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I agree with Poul,also. I took nothing as an insult, and didn't find anything out-of-line,really. In fact, he thanked me twice in this thread, and I didn't respond. My bad...you're welcome.
Sometimes his tone comes across as a mite condescending/baiting (like his last Symetrix post), but maybe I'm sensitive to that. I just don't respond. (And, of course, starting a new thread to specifically call attention to an attempted refutation of one of my statements on another board is uncalled for. It failed, but still...) This tends to go away quickly in anyone who stays here for a length of time for the sincere purpose of learning/contributing, and may be a product of youthful enthusiasm (something he certainly does not lack). This applies to many besides Jones, I don't really mean to single him out. I hope he stays and learns, he does not come across as unintelligent.
This topic should have been finished halfway down the first page,though...

Jack, what really concerns me is that with this newly declared posting number, it looks like I'm years away from attaining HT god status (470 posts since 10/14/98). I'm bummed...

It's not all it's cracked up to be, Hank. Ask Eric Clapton.
------------------

 

[Patrick Sun]

Hank, don't sweat it. A high post count don't mean squat. I should know.
Anyone following a forum for a couple of months can easily separate the wheat from the chaff.
------------------
PatCave ; HT Pix ; Gear ; Sunosub I + III ; DVDs ; Link Removed

 

[Jack Gilvey]

fwiw, I think most of my posts have been for testing purposes. I've had about 5 constructive ones (3 of which were recipes), which I've printed and saved.

 

[Patrick Sun]

The lemon meringue pie recipe was excellent.
------------------
PatCave ; HT Pix ; Gear ; Sunosub I + III ; DVDs ; Link Removed

 

[John Morton]

I also wanted to say thanks to Jack and the gang. Lots of good information. This thread was well worth the time (and the laughs!!).
Written words are tough!! There's no basis for concluding the intention in what one says.

 

[Brian Bunge]

I just wanted to let all of you from the Atlanta area know that I saw something on the way to work today that scared the hell outta me for a second! I saw a trunk on I-285 with what looked like a 12' piece of 24" sonotube strapped to the top of the ladder rack and my first thought was, "Oh no! Pat's building another sub!" Then I realized that it was headed in the wrong direction so I knew we were safe!
Actually, it was strapped down so tight that it was a bit oval shaped and I knew Pat wouldn't have that!
Brian

 

[Patrick Sun]

Damn straight!
------------------
PatCave ; HT Pix ; Gear ; Sunosub I + III ; DVDs ; Link Removed