Who Listens To Us Anymore? (1 Viewer)

[Brandon Conway]

It's because a lot of the visual effects companies still work in 2K. All of these films are very effects heavy as compared to a TV show.

 

[FoxyMulder]

I stand corrected. Looks like Breaking Bad has indeed been remastered to 4K. It just seems kind of odd that a relatively modestly budgeted series would be completed in 4K when massive films like The Hobbit, Skyfall, Edge of Tomorrow and the new X-Men only exist at 2K.

As far as i'm aware Skyfall has a 4K digital intermediate.

It's true that some of those films only have 2K digital intermediates but if the digital camera was greater than 2K resolution then that doesn't stop them going back to the original footage or in the case of 35mm film the negatives and re-doing things, of course that's not cheap, maybe it will happen in the future when they want 4K content, films like Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith are forever stuck at 2K resolution but they might upscale them and get better quality that way, you run into all sorts of issues with movies shot on 35mm film that have lower resolution effects footage such as Jurassic Park but they re-render animation for 3D so they could re-render fx footage for future 4K releases, from an expense point of view probably only viable for blockbuster films.

 

[Worth]

Skyfall claims a 4K DI, but was shot almost entirely with the Arri Alexa, which is limited to 2.8K.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Skyfall claims a 4K DI, but was shot almost entirely with the Arri Alexa, which is limited to 2.8K.

I wonder how they achieved that, upscaled i guess, i read a rumour that they are working on a new Arri 6K camera with a proper 65mm sensor thus it will give much better image quality than the rival competition which squeezes things onto smaller sensors.

 

[ROclockCK]

I don't buy that as the BD sales are too great in numbers to be a niche market. This isn't a small market like LD. Granted, certain classic titles might be niche especially with these licensed out titles, but overall, the BD market is mass market.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Blu-ray has not achieved "critical mass market" status Robert...i.e. has not rendered the previous mass format obsolete and replaced it, as happened with DVD vs. VHS and eventually Laserdisc.

In that sense, Blu-ray is concurrently mass-ish, while still niche-ish...if that makes any sense*.

* a moot point anyway since Blu-ray will face the same inevitable decline for all packaged media as streaming/download delivery gathers momentum.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

It's because a lot of the visual effects companies still work in 2K. All of these films are very effects heavy as compared to a TV show.

True. Still happens today - this year's "Amazing Spider-Man 2" was shot in 4K resolution, but according to American Cinematographer, all of that was downrezzed to 2K for editing and effects work, so any 4K release of that film wouldn't truly be 4K.

I wonder if we'll end up in a situation with current films like we have today with 80s/90s television shows that were shot on film but finished on video, where material that was wholly film-based can be easily re-scanned for 4K, but stuff that's completed now at 2K is forever stuck at 2K. And I mean, the movie is what the movie is, I probably won't lose too much sleep over it, but it's sorta funny that movies made today with state of the art equipment are limited to resolution that's far less than what I just saw in a 70mm print of "2001: A Space Odyssey" last weekend, a movie that's almost 50 years old.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Blu-ray has not achieved "critical mass market" status Robert...i.e. has not rendered the previous mass format obsolete and replaced it, as happened with DVD vs. VHS and eventually Laserdisc.

In that sense, Blu-ray is concurrently mass-ish, while still niche-ish...if that makes any sense*.

* a moot point anyway since Blu-ray will face the same inevitable decline for all packaged media as streaming/download delivery gathers momentum.

The format war plus bad economic timing hurt BD's penetration as far as a sale through market, but there aren't too many people I know that haven't watched a BD at home. They might not own a lot of them, but they have a BD player in their home which is unlike the lack of LD players within the homes of the general public.

 

[ROclockCK]

The format war plus bad economic timing hurt BD's penetration as far as a sale through market, but there aren't too many people I know that haven't watched a BD at home. They might not own a lot of them, but they have a BD player in their home which is unlike the lack of LD players within the homes of the general public.

Well, that's what I was alluding to Robert; the course of the Blu-ray market has been full of such contradictions. Mass penetration of the 'hardware' is now there, just not mass engagement with the 'software'...

At least that's what I hear all the time from retail reps I talk to. They also can't believe that in the year 2014 some people are still buying DVDs, often only a couple of bucks cheaper, or occasionally even par with the same title on Blu-ray.

 

[Yorkshire]

I wonder how they achieved that, upscaled i guess, i read a rumour that they are working on a new Arri 6K camera with a proper 65mm sensor thus it will give much better image quality than the rival competition which squeezes things onto smaller sensors.

I'll try to track it down - I read an interview with Roger Deakins where he talked a little about the IMAX version. He said he was unsure whether it'd blow up well for IMAX, and they did a few tests. First one, IMAX put it through their normal process, and it didn't look good (can't remember why). RD then supervised am upscale and it was good enough - I think he was quite impressed.

Steve W

 

[Yorkshire]

Here you go:

http://www.arri.com/news/skyfall-the-biggest-bond-yet/

"I didn't know that we were going to release (Skyfall) on IMAX until after we made the decision to shoot with the ALEXA. We had also made the decision to shoot spherical and take a 2.40:1 extraction, so I was a little bit nervous when the IMAX issue came up. We did some tests straight away and in the first set the colors didn't look great. We then found out that IMAX have their own system of conversion, which they call 'enhancement', so we tried another test without using that system and I thought the images looked spectacular on the big IMAX screen."

Steve W

 

[jcroy]

The format war plus bad economic timing hurt BD's penetration as far as a sale through market

I'm somewhat skeptical of arguments blaming hd-dvd/bluray's shortcomings directly on the great recession.

(Hypothetically).

If bluray was released after the great recession was over (such as in 2010 or 2011), would bluray have done better?

For that matter, would bluray (or hd-dvd) have done better if it was released years earlier before the great recession (such as in 2001 or 2002)? (Assuming the patent disputes over blue lasers were settled earlier).

 

[Keith Cobby]

I think most consumers see blu-ray as incremental and not always worth upgrading. Whereas DVD was almost always superior to VHS and many more films/TV were made available for the first time. There are not many films released on blu-ray for the first time in comparison. These diminishing returns will carry through to 4K as far fewer consumers will want to upgrade to a new format (if available).

 

[Robert Crawford]

I'm somewhat skeptical of arguments blaming hd-dvd/bluray's shortcomings directly on the great recession.

(Hypothetically).

If bluray was released after the great recession was over (such as in 2010 or 2011), would bluray have done better?

For that matter, would bluray (or hd-dvd) have done better if it was released years earlier before the great recession (such as in 2001 or 2002)? (Assuming the patent disputes over blue lasers were settled earlier).

Have it your way as I'm not going to get into some pseudo social-economic discussion here except to say disposable income spending was down during that recession. If you don't think so then you were living in a different world than I during those bad days.

 

[Persianimmortal]

I think most consumers see blu-ray as incremental and not always worth upgrading. Whereas DVD was almost always superior to VHS and many more films/TV were made available for the first time. There are not many films released on blu-ray for the first time in comparison. These diminishing returns will carry through to 4K as far fewer consumers will want to upgrade to a new format (if available).

Except that many people will be jumping directly from DVD to 4K, which is hardly an incremental change, and that difference will be all the more noticeable on the bigger screens most people are buying now.Plus let's remember that 4K is not going to be a disc-bound format requiring significant hardware upgrade - for most people, upgrading to 4K will probably just involve switching to an appropriate steaming service, or downloading 4K movie files.

 

[David_B_K]

I'm somewhat skeptical of arguments blaming hd-dvd/bluray's shortcomings directly on the great recession.

(Hypothetically).

If bluray was released after the great recession was over (such as in 2010 or 2011), would bluray have done better?

For that matter, would bluray (or hd-dvd) have done better if it was released years earlier before the great recession (such as in 2001 or 2002)? (Assuming the patent disputes over blue lasers were settled earlier).

The Great Recession is still going on, and if it is not, then the small recession is going on; and if it is not a recession, it is very slow growth coupled with high unemployment. I work at a business that is involved with wholesale and retail sales, and I have seen first hand that discretionary income is not as plentiful as it once was. I read an article a few days ago the described how many golf courses are shutting down due to lack of business. Atlantic City is on the verge of shutting its doors. Food prices keep rising and gasoline prices are holding steady at a fairly high level. The format war and its end could not have come at a worse time. People have to make a choice as to what to spend their money on. Fanatics like us will choose media more than the average casual fan.

In a way though, the poor economy has been a blessing as well for consumers of media. I seriously doubt we'd be seeing $5.99-$8.99 Blu-rays if the economy was chugging along. Consumers are benefiting, but producers of media are seeing their profits erode. Double edged sword.

 

[Rick Thompson]

Plus let's remember that 4K is not going to be a disc-bound format requiring significant hardware upgrade - for most people, upgrading to 4K will probably just involve switching to an appropriate steaming service, or downloading 4K movie files.

Maybe you've got unlimited data, but with carriers like Verizon putting the clamps on that idea, anyone outside the hard-wired big cities and their suburbs will never see 4K streaming. The data cost will be through the roof. That, of course, assumes the FIOS/cable companies don't also make it highly expensive, in which case 4K streaming will be a (very small) niche item.

 

[cineMANIAC]

Plus let's remember that 4K is not going to be a disc-bound format requiring significant hardware upgrade - for most people, upgrading to 4K will probably just involve switching to an appropriate steaming service, or downloading 4K movie files.

Is 4K being marketed primarily as a streaming-only platform? I don't see too many of the people who have happily stuck with DVD jumping directly into an ultra-niche format like 4K unless they all suddenly feel a need to abandon physical media. If this is the studios' intent they may very well succeed but I'm sticking with my physical discs.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Is 4K being marketed primarily as a streaming-only platform?

No.

 

[Sam Posten]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that a lot of the 'noise' we see when directed at the studios is for very obscure films with VERY limited marketability, and the profit in that is just so low. I'm glad to see 'feeder' companies starting to take on these films and wish them all the best of luck with them, but I am NOT a fan of the business model being employed. So far I have yet to buy a single disk from any of these offerings despite casual interest. I'm glad to see there is enough hard core folks out there who will make it work, but I'm not going to be one of em any time soon.And the fact is everyone has their own wishlist and there are even ANTI-fans of some of those films. Mine is headlined by Song of the South and I've been very critical of the studio for not finding some way to make that work, some way, some how. My ideal would be for Criterion to do it but if it went to one of the new blood I mention above I'd get over my objections and buy it for day one, no doubt. As much as I want SOTS, in numerous instances I've been called a racist and worse for wanting to experience that film for myself for the first time in 40 years and to make up my own damn mind on the controversy. It's mind boggling really, we've seen war propaganda and things like Birth of a Nation, but a kids movie from a beloved studio is too controversial to see released.And yet, I remain optimistic. As Crawdaddy notes this is a GREAT time to be a fan, and we've got to get past the "Everything is amazing and nobody is happy" routine. Product availability is at an all time high. HD is mainstream. IMAX and Atmos are growing in the theaters. More people are experiencing films they were shot than ever. When was the last time we had to battle pan and scan, amirite? We have 3 major home consoles that -require- HD viewing and encourage surround and deep bass. 4K is coming. We can stream, rent, buy or download in a zillion incompatible but pretty damn good quality formats.Cable TV shows are popping out gripping stories with characters that matter. There's a lot of lowest common denominator crap out there too, but there's plenty of sophisticated fare on the big and little screen and more every day on the game console screens too, led by indy developers.I'd not trade it for the anything.

 

[Paul_Warren]

I think the studios listen selectively only too well on catalog titles as lets face it new BD's are not really an issue.

Lets discuss Bluray Steelbooks in the UK for instance. Most are 4K only limited runs same old transfer just a new case often with fabulous artwork. Look at the economics to make the steelbook case & the BD disc (minimal the disc is £1 or less the case £5). 4000 x £10 =£40,000 ($68500 on todays exchange rate) per title instant studio profit with minimal outlay as the BD already exists no wonder they are releasing so many (most Steelbooks cost between £15-20 on release). That's huge business for the studios just to resell the same BD in a fancy but usually collectable case is bringing them millions a year from UK/EU alone who said catalog release's were declining!

But to me the problem is 50/50. When BD came out so many inferior sub std releases were pushed onto unlucky first adopters who assumed they would get a noticeable upgrade over DVD when so many were & still are offering inferior HD rehashes which obviously come from a dated source or the DNR was applied way too heavily (Bring It On is the latest IMO its a pretty average typical Universal video transfer & looks like it was struck a long time ago yet sold/marketed as a new HD release ).

The consumer is right to be vocal about these sub std catalog release's you expect an upgrade from your DVD library not a dated remaster from the mid 2000's.

The studio is right to think why bother if the economics do not work for them.

Its a standoff but only the studios have the power to turn things around & somehow I do not see it happening many have already decided to wait for Streaming only so they can control the format going forward.

I think it would be a good idea for studios to start doing catalog releases with fresh transfer HD masters (compression tools improvements mean they can produce a better image usually for little outlay) & selling those for a premium laserdisc era price on MOD only but sell globally. It seems to be the only way forward if many have effectively given up on the traditional methods to produce new transfer catalog releases.

4K is not going to fly if BD is struggling to achieve mass market is it! 50GB Is enough for 4K anyway no need for a new optical disc format IMO.