What we are up against... (1 Viewer)

[Jeffrey_Jones]

Hello,

This is the best part, I never argued in favor of 4:3. The only thing I am in favor of is the fair exchange of information and ideas...period. That is what makes this forum useful to me.

It seems to me that people are allowed to be as mean spirited, childish and argumentative as they want as long as they agree with the majority of the forum. As soon as an individual offers a differing opinion, watch out.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Sean Conklin]

This forum, and the Internet in general, can be an excellent medium for people looking to learn and exchange ideas. If you are "officially" saying that you would censor someone from debating in favor of 4:3, or any idea/issue/concern, then I think you need to reexamine your goals for this forum.

I'm sorry I can't leave this one alone
Would you join or argue with a christian forum with a mission statement that clearly states we are pro GOD and frown upon any statements or posts advocating SATAN? And would you then post: "If you are "officially" saying that you would censor someone from debating in favor SATAN, or any idea/issue/concern, then I think you need to reexamine your goals for this forum". What kind of a response would you expect?
This forum is a place for HT/OAR enthusiasts to congregate and debate HT and other topics, and as HTF's mission statement states, P&S will be frowned upon!
SEAN "I own a 4:3 TV and am RABIDLY pro OAR" CONKLIN

 

[Sean Conklin]

It seems to me that people are allowed to be as mean spirited, childish and argumentative as they want as long as they agree with the majority of the forum. As soon as an individual offers a differing opinion, watch out.

Well Jeffrey, Plain and simple we are afraid of losing our OAR, and are MAD that we cannot get some of our favorite movies in OAR on DVD!
While most DVD's are OAR, there is a disturbing number of P&S only releases, which almost sends me into a frenzy!

 

[Jason P]

Sean,
Good analogy that made this forum's stance abundantly clear and will hopefully end the issue altogether.

 

[Justin Lane]

DVD should be the format which caters to film enthusiasts!Why? Because we spend lots of money to reproduce the theaterlike setting at home, and if "average consumer" wants to do the same then he should be willing to accept OAR, if "average consumer" is not willing to accept OAR, then he doesn't deserve DVD! He deserves a nice VCR!!

When DVD first came on the scene and was proposed it was never once stated it was going to be an OAR only format. If anything one of the major features touted early on was the ability to give you both widescreen and P&S transfers and also Pan and Scan on the fly!!!! DVD was touted more so as a major jumping block for computer usage hence the original moniker "Digital Versatile Discs". Unfortunately this still has not come to pass. Computer manufacturers still sell new computers with CD-ROM drives installed, not to mention the millions upon millions of CD-ROM drives already in use today.

Spending more money on a home theater does not entitle you to anymore benefits then someone who just owns a plain television. All it means is you like to spend money on this hobby whereas others like directing their funds elsewhere.

DVD was pushed so hard to make money. If there was not profits to be made we would still be rewinding our VHS tapes and flipping our Laserdiscs. An unfortunate side effect is that P&S only versions will be made from time to time, and on occasion we the OAR supporters may get the short end of the stick. We have a passion, but in the end the studios just see the economics of the situation.

J

 

[Jeffrey_Jones]

Sean,

I completely agree with you on the fundamentals of OAR vs. P&S and I really want OAR to be successful. I also really want a good 16:9 format tube TV for a reasonable price.

My only problem was with this forum censoring an individual's right to express an opposing view. While I understand your Christian forum analogy I understood this forum to be an all-around HT site where people could freely share differing ideas and opinions…similar in function to an all-around site on religion. If a member of a religious forum expressed Buddhist beliefs I would not expect every Christian to jump down his/her throat.

Thanks,

Jeff

PS - Where is this mission statement that everyone keeps referring to?

 

[Jim A. Banville]

What are ya'll smoking? Correct me if I'm wrong, but has SINGLE person ADVOCATED P&S over OAR? Not from what I remember reading in this thread. Others and I have simply said, in so many words, that we support OAR for ourselves, but support and respect other indiviuals choices as to which format they choose.

The war isn't about stomping out P&S (I don't know where you got that from).

What?! Have you somehow missed all the comments like "P&S on DVD should be abolished, it should not even be a choice. The only choice for "average consumer" should be OAR, buy it or don't buy it!!"? There is another thread where someone actually brought up charging MORE for P&S DVD's! And several other members AGREED! Sad :frowning:

 

[Peter Kim]

You beat me to the punch, Sean.

Furthermore, OAR is a Fact, not an opinion. To argue that any position supportive of P&S has absolutely no merit. Not only not in this forum, but also not among the film community at large (e.g., Scorcese). Simply, there is nothing right about P&S. It's not censorship, it's frivolous (and I suspect baiting) to argue otherwise.

No one can predict the state of film/dvd in 1 year, much less 5 years. From this I ask those who are sympathetic to P&S - why deride or even detract those whose efforts are to preserve what they cherish? Neither you or the pro-OAR contingent can say definitively what will happen. But the chance that OAR dvd's will become a niche product, either in sales or rental, deserves serious attention.

As long as uncertainty exists, anyone has the right to ensure the survival of their philosophy. The philosophy of this forum is OAR.

 

[Sean Conklin]

Jeffrey, I agree, I too would like to be able to purchase an affordable 16:9 set. The mission statement is contained on the page where you sign up, it's part of the member agreement, I'm not sure where else it may be available to read.

Spending more money on a home theater does not entitle you to anymore benefits then someone who just owns a plain television. All it means is you like to spend money on this hobby whereas others like directing their funds elsewhere.

It also means that anyone who would spend such money, wants a theater like re-creation, and that includes OAR.

If "average consumer" spends $200 or more on a DVD player and another $500 or more on DVD's, why can't he except the OAR standard, and spend 3 or 4 hundred on a big enough TV to be able to view OAR?

After all he/she cares enough to want the better resolution that comes with DVD, which means they must care about the films they purchase, which in turn includes OAR.

Why can't we film/HT enthusiasts have a complete hobby, without the aggravation and dismay of P&S only releases?We support studio's by buying OAR releases, we are members of HT forums, to a good number of us film and HT are our pride and joy. And our hobby is not complete if we can't own our favorite films in OAR!

Why can't DVD be the format to cater to us the film enthusiasts? We deserve it!

This situation could be brought to a halt if the studio's would make sure all releases have an OAR version available.

I'm not unreasonable, I could look the other way on P&S IF every single DVD release had high quality OAR available to me!

 

[Justin Lane]

No one can predict the state of film/dvd in 1 year, much less 5 years. From this I ask those who are sympathetic to P&S - why deride or even detract those whose efforts are to preserve what they cherish? Neither you or the pro-OAR contingent can say definitively what will happen. But the chance that OAR dvd's will become a niche product, either in sales or rental, deserves serious attention.

Who is this plea directed towards. Throughout this entire thread I have yet to see one individual post who is sympathetic to P&S. If you really want to make a stand take out an ad in your local paper and post this plea there instead, where you would actually have an audience to change.

To sum it up OAR seems to be coming the abortion issue of the HTF. People want the answers in Black and White where in reality there many are shades of gray. Am I Pro-OAR...yes, or I would not have bothered posting here for so long. On the other hand I am Pro-Choice in the sense that I don't believe in shoving my my views down others throats when they resist, even if they are different then mine. When I get too heated in an issue I always like to go back and ask myself, "Who the hell made me an authority on how someone else should think?" This usually puts things a little bit better in prespective, but then again that is just my *choice* on how I do things.

J

 

[Sean Conklin]

Jim, "average consumer" has an alternative to OAR, they have VCR!
OTOH, we have no alternative, if "P&S only" DVD releases are the only choice, then we have no means to view a potential favorite movie in OAR! Then "average consumer" has 2 ways to fill his screen!!
That's BS!! That's why some of us proclaim we are "RABID. You must be able to see where we are coming from!!
Do you have any favorite films that are only available in P&S or MAR version? If so you too should be vigilant!!
Good post Peter!

 

[Sean Conklin]

Who is this plea directed towards. Throughout this entire thread I have yet to see one individual post who is sympathetic to P&S. If you really want to make a stand take out an ad in your local paper and post this plea there instead, where you would actually have an audience to change.

There are many non member guests and potential enthusiasts browsing our forum, just check the who's online page! It is not futile to post our support.

We petition, we try to educate friends and family, we do what we can to constructively protect and educate about OAR!

Now the non member guest see's us arguing about it and he thinks it's ok to have a choice between P&S and OAR, or at least questions the virtues of OAR!

I'm not heartless, if I was magically given the authority to have anything happen here, it would be: OAR on all releases period! But..... make sure DVD players are available to the "average consumer" with the Pan and Scan "on the fly" option. Problem solved..The end.

 

[Bill Catherall]

I guess I did missed a few...then in my last post I answered my own question. I guess it wasn't very clear though. I'll rephrase...
I'd say the majority of us don't share the "P&S must die" philosophy. I'm okay with having both formats available. However, I'm not against the extreme idea of ridding the world of P&S. The reason is because I see that when presented with the choice, the inferior P&S transfer (inferior because it is against everything home theater stands for) seems to be the prevailing choice. Not because it's better, but because the vast majority of consumers are either uninformed about the benefits of widescreen, or they just don't care. Then the studios and merchants translate that to mean that people "prefer" P&S, so widescreen is only saved for the "special edition" titles. All movies should be treated as "special edition" and available in OAR. But sometimes studios say things like, "Is there a great demand for 1.85 Flat Comedies to be seen widescreen?" -- Warner, Chat dated 10-16-01 What kind of a question is that?! Why would they even think not to make a widescreen transfer of flat comedies or "kids" movies? I'll tell you why...because for some reason they think widescreen isn't "family friendly."
I fully support the "rabid" members here. These folks not only care about a proper transfer, but they also want to teach "Joe" about it. They also have come up with some very creative ideas to help teach people...and will surely come up with more.
Now really...what would the world lose if P&S weren't available? What's the harm? As stated by our many UK members, it's not a problem in the UK. The war has been won there.

 

[Peter Kim]

To name one, you, Justin. In the spectrum of any cause celebre, two extremes exist. The extreme you appear to contest is that of anti-p&s (aka the abolotion of p&s, and "...shoving my views down others throats...". Relative to this viewpoint, you could be considered sympathetic, no?

I am not pro-OAR. I am anti p&s. I think I can deliver this distinction without lessening diplomacy. You're right...rarely is there an opportunity to characterize a situation as black or white. However, in order to defend my ground, I've adopted this strategy. Ask any writer, author whether an abridged version of his work accurately represents his vision.

I've never shoved my views, unwelcome, down anyone else's throat, particularly if they resist. In this example, by entering this thread, one which is clearly marked pro-OAR from the first post, you've given license to those who posses the more extreme viewpoint to express their feelings.

In reality, I believe that tool, which will bring about a paradigm shift, is the mass penetration of the widescreen tv. Until then, when I cannot casually rent a popcorn flick like The Mummy Returns in its OAR on a Friday night, the other side is shoving it down my throat.

 

[Sean Conklin]

Good stuff Bill and Peter!

Wouldn't the P&S on the fly be the end all solution?

The studio's would make a lot more money because I for one along with many other "OAR only" people would now be purchasing anything their heart desires.

The "average consumer", us, the studio's, everyone would be very happy, I know I'd be whistling dixie out of my ass!

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Instead of putting the OAR fight on videos, put it IN THE THEATERS!

Think about it, a 1.33:1 P&S image from a popular movie shows up on screen, only showing noses or something. This is the 2.35:1 version

"You don't like this very much do you"

"You really can't see the movie can you?"

"This is what happens every time a film is made to "fit your screen"

(image starts to barndoor out to the full picture)

"Widescreen on home video shows you what you've been missing"

That is about as visual as you can get, and it's BIG and EQUAL HEIGHT, the 2 factors usually missing when these demos are shown

 

[cafink]

That is about as visual as you can get, and it's BIG and EQUAL HEIGHT, the 2 factors usually missing when these demos are shown

But isn't that misrepresenting the issue? Couldn't that only hurt our cause?

There's not such thing as pan and scan in the theater. Only on home video. And when you compare pan and scan to widescreen on home video, the picture is not big, and the two are not of equal height.

We all know that widescreen is better, but it does us no good to pretend that the issue is as black and white as you make it out to be. There are people who prefer pan and scan because it affords them a bigger picture on their television screen, regardless of how much the image is cropped. Your example doesn't properly convey this trade-off.

 

[Matt Wallace]

That's a cool idea. I wonder how much a studio would put into that. And, honestly, I'm sure movie theater chains would LOVE to lure more customers into buying a home theater and eventually shunning them (as many of us have). That would be the one sticking point. However, I would love to see it proven wrong and made a reality!

Matt

 

[jeff peterson]

I think another reason for the OAR passion is the fact that DVD's durability makes you think of it as an archival medium. Think of the reviews mentioning that a film is the best it's looked since it's release. Great! Now all of us can have the movie (sometimes) better than it looked in the theater.

Now imagine that it's only P&S; we may never be able to see that whole thing...just a tempting

slice

. With all the discussion of studio economics, if our voices aren't raised, they will cater to the lowest common denominator.

Because a position is supported by the majority doesn't make it morally right.

 

[PhilipG]

You know what the biggest problem is in converting J6P?
The fact that the majority of non-OAR people sit too far away from their small television sets.
I tried to watch a 2.35:1 film at my father's house (29" 4:3, okay not that small), and I couldn't see what was going on half the time. Let's not even get started about reading subtitles or textual information in frame. Of course, I moved my chair a lot closer to the TV, and bingo, problem solved. But J6P's thought process is to make the picture bigger (="full frame"), and keep the chair where it is.