What may drive hirez acceptance... (1 Viewer)

[Marc Colella]

Frankly, there seems to me to be a lot of Sony bashing going on here.

It's alright to bash the company when there's a reason to bash them. It's not like we're picking on Sony for no reason. Hopefully you aren't taking it personally.

 

[Jack Briggs]

It goes back to something I said in some long-ago thread you were in, Lee. Hobbyist audio never really took off with the masses the way home theater is now threatening to. Most people are content to own a "stereo" of whatever quality or to play low-fi MP3s. For some reason, the mass market doesn't care about even what the cogniscenti consider "mid-fi."

It's the way it always has been (notice the dearth of audio-only magazines these days).

Video, well, that's different. Everybody loves a movie. Everybody loves pretty pictures. Throw in DD 5.1 surround, and everybody's wetting their pants.

These mass-market consumers have never heard of Saul Marantz or Frank McIntosh or William Zane Johnson or Henry Kloss. The great milestones in audio history are irrelevant to them.

And that's the rub.

The SACD and DVD-A formats have only made inroads (if you can call it that) with hobbyist audiophiles.

To the mass market, as mentioned earlier, the 1982 CD mantra of "perfect sound forever" was achieved.

 

[Ron Reda]

As a quick side note...Lee, here are those Dire Straits XRCD links I promised you:

http://www.audiophile-records.com/al...x=30&View.y=13

or here at Music Direct:

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products...ku=CJVC5483572

There's also one on eBay right now as well.

As far as SACD goes...I'm new to the whole SACD "thing" (I just picked up a Pioneer DV-563 universal player and had only a few short hours worth of listening time before my Rotel pre/pro crapped out for some strange reason...a whole different story altogether ), but I was thinking that perhaps the big SACD push will come once the market has matured a bit more. I mean, with the advent of low-cost universal players like the Pioneer, it's only a matter of time before they start making their way into J6P's living room. Then maybe those same people will see that little SACD logo on the player and realize that the same logo is on their new copy of "Dark Side of the Moon" which may prompt them to investigate further. Hopefully by that time there will be a lot more mainstream software available for them to explore and we'll have one more informed consumer out there. Yeah, it's wishful thinking, but it can happen!

 

[ReggieW]

Lee,

I second what Jack, Rachael, and just about what everyone else has said in this thread. We are hobbyist and the masses simply don't care about the "improved sonics" of hirez offerings. I'm sure many of us here sit down for hours in our living/listening rooms soaking in the music. You must understand that WE are in the minority. To most people music is something they listen to out of casual leisure while at work, in the car, jogging, parties, or while they're getting ready for school/work in the morning. I spent over $400.00 for a new NAD 541i CD player two weeks ago because I wanted the best redbook sound that I could afford for $500.00. Everyone at work I told this said they would NEVER spend that much for a CD player. They said "why don't you just use your DVD player?" which probably wouldn't be bad advice if I owned a $1k or higher player. Many did not even know that single disc CD players were still in existence! I wish you could make the masses care much more about many things, but unfortunately this just isn't the case.

Reg

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The SACD and DVD-A formats have only made inroads (if you can call it that) with hobbyist audiophiles.

Jack, I think you could make the argument that more than audiophiles are enjoying Super Audio now. There are, in my opinion, three keys to moving to wider acceptance...

1. Greater title selection: this is doing very well for Super Audio with all the labels (180+) on board and regular releases as well as big albums like Sting and Yellow Brick Road.

2. Cheaper hardware: original topic of thread and best demonstrated by the good sonics of the $150 Pioneer. More on the way as Ian showed with the new inexpensive LSI chips.

3. Market awareness: still a lot of work to be done but single inventory hybrids are a big boost. Many music fans will start to get curious as they see that cool Super Audio logo. The more serious music fans, who are always the early adopters anyway, will want to hear the best resolution layer once they hear what is possible. Maybe the labels and Sony should be doing "road shows" that visit music festivals and showcase the technology.

Maybe I am wrong, but I see signs of widening acceptance if not mainstream yet. At some point, there will be enough Floyd or Beatles out there to make prospective hirez buyers curious enough to buy a player.

Even if I am wrong I do think slightly wider acceptance will guarantee a nice stream of the better albums for us to enjoy for a long time. Either way the customer wins.

I also think hirez could play a beneficial role in recording technology as it highlights low level detail which can lead to better recordings and adjustments.

Reggie,

I don't disagree that we are a minority today, but what I am saying is that that could change. Many people who think spending more than $500 for a CD player think nothing about dropping $30K for a new car. Guess what gives me more fun at the end of the day? My stereo. The big consumer trend of home theater is changing this I think so more people are getting into the audio/video technology.

If you read "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell you will see numerous case studies of why things become big in America. I see some signs that hirez could happen. The labels may make a push if they think the extra copyright protection is important.

 

[Phil A]

Sony is doing stuff to promote the format. I understand that people with Yahoo mail got pop-ups advertising the upcoming Dylan catalog. The major problem is that a majority of people get their stuff from the Best Buy and Circuit City type stores in the real world. If I go into my local Circuit City, they barely have any titles of both formats. Best Buy, which is getting a decent collection of stuff, does not not employees who have a clue as to what the formats are. I try to move stuff and talk to them but every time I go into the store, they have DVD-As in the SACD area (e.g. the new Steely Dan), DTS CDs (in regular CD cases) in the SACD area, DTS CDs (in DVD-A sized cases) in the DVD-A area, DVD-As in CD sized cases in both the SACD area and CD area, and SACDs in both the DVD-A area and CD area (both single layer and hybrids).

So the point is if the people who will talk to the public about questions about these formats have no clue, how is the public to get enough information to reach decisions. The people selling the hardware in these stores are in general just as clueless. What Sony and Warner need to do is pay for some training and show these people the differences. These are the people who will deal with the public on a daily basis. If not, they will remain niche markets for some time to come and have the real possibility of not lasting. Even a good portion of the people at the stores a notch up (e.g. a Tweeter), are not as educated as they could be. High end shops would still rather sell you a $3k+ CD player than a moderately priced universal machine which may sound as good or better with hi-rez material.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What Sony and Warner need to do is pay for some training and show these people the differences. These are the people who will deal with the public on a daily basis.

I think that is a good idea. A bit more salestaff education would go a long way. Maybe Sony could create dealer incentives for training people on a store by store basis. Monster Cable has been effective at using guerilla marketing tools like salestaff incentives to great effect.

 

[Thomas Newton]

Copy protection possibilities of DVD-A will provide the vehicle for studios to invest in Hi-rez titles and steer them from the red-book CD's of today. It's inevitable.

Like the replacement of DVD by the Circuit City DIVX format was "inevitable"? Like the replacement of Red Book Audio CDs by DRMed DataPlay discs was in the bag?

 

[Angelo.M]

Remind me, didn't Betamax have better resolution than VHS?

A few thoughts for today:

Even if hi-rez never attains the type of acceptance redbook CD has, does it matter? Despite flagging sales of recorded music, the number of hi-rez titles continues to grow, the availability of a low-cost universal player (with more on the way) is a reality, and hybrid discs are showing themselves as well. I'd argue that "acceptance," to a degree, has already been achieved. If hi-rez remains a niche, I see no problem with it at all.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Right. As long as it's there and continues to stay there, at least the audio-nut (i.e., all of us) segment of the population will be happy. Even if the person-on-the-street thinks you're talking about a street drug when you say "SACD."

 

[Lee Scoggins]

at least the audio-nut (i.e., all of us) segment of the population will be happy

I agree Jack.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, there's nothing over the top about what I said, IMO. Sony seems to be removing SACD from most of it's line. You mostly have to go ES to get it now. There would be no SACD players in the local Busted Buy were it not for the new Pioneer 563. Across the street at Circus City, all they have is a really pitiful Sony shelf system. The only other places in this town to buy SACD players are the two upscale type dealers. They both carry Denon and Elite. One of them is a Yamaha dealer and has yet to stock a Yammy SACD player.

For the average joe, if it's not in CC or BB, it might as well not exist. Sony has no real pressence, SACD-wise, anymore in these venues. If Phillips, Sony, and Universal stick with SACD long enough, they may build up a sizable minority format? As the number of 5.1 systems increases, they may be able to sell the M/C aspect to more folks?

Sony isn't even trying for mass-market now, today, like they were 2 years ago. If they were, they would have players available at BB and CC. Instead they have redbook changers at BB, $94 & $119, with or without remote control.

Just because DVD-A is doing even worse doesn't mean SACD is doing well. It's just barely treading water IMO. Expensive players and expensive discs have carried it this far. Both must become cheaper and better for the format to have any chance of widespread acceptance IMO.

The tipping point you describe is IMO, when you can really sell SACD, and DVD-A for that matter, at BB and CC. That is barely even happening....Best wishes!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Expensive players and expensive discs have carried it this far. Both must become cheaper and better for the format to have any chance of widespread acceptance IMO.

That was the point of my thread. Previously we spoke of universal players causing a "convergence" of the two formats into two co-existing standards like DD/DTS. I wrote the thread because I heard Ron's Pioneer 563 and was really impressed with the sound quality. I am sure a $100 SACD/DVDA/DVDV player is not too far off. Take one LSI chip and add Samsung and others and I think we may see wider acceptance.

Plus the title selection is growing nicely and disc prices are coming down. Look at the single inventory Sting album.

Expensive discs and players always start off a new format. Do you remember how expensive the early DVD players were? I even remember the expensive RCA video player my dad bought in the early 80s. I have seen many disc prices come down. Shoot, today I saw several Chesky SACDs selling at Best Buy for around $16, about the same as what the redbooks sell for. With more replication capacity prices can continue to fall.

 

[Marc Colella]

What makes you think this? They just announced many new SACD players for their Fall new product lineup including several SACD capable HTIB solutions.

Lee,

Can you list Sony's currently available and newly announced SACD players?. You make it sound like they have many models of SACD players (and you may be right) but I'd like to know what they are.

 

[ReggieW]

Lee,

The only SACD player My local Best Buy currently stocks is the Pioneer 563. I was there last night and this is it. My local Circuit City carries two Sony HTIB packages in which one has SACD capability. I would seriously like to know where the plethora of "NON-ES" players are that you're talking about, because I surely haven't seen them.

Reg

 

[John Kotches]

Available from the Online Sony store:

DVD without SACD: 13
DVD with SACD: 2
HTiB with SACD: 5
HTiB no SACD: 0
Standalone CD: 7

So, we have 13 of 15 DVD players that don't have SACD capability. All HTiBs offer SACD, starting at a list of US$600.




ES line:
DVD with SACD: 1
DVD without SACD: 0
Standalone SACD: 3 (C555 and C222 were introduced in 2001)
Standalone CD: 3

In the ES line, with correspondingly higher price tags we have a "broader" availibility of SACD.

More telling than what's for sale right now will be what is announced at CEDIA in early September. We're near the end of the model year, and Sony has had SACD announcements in years past at CEDIA.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

More telling than what's for sale right now will be what is announced at CEDIA in early September. We're near the end of the model year, and Sony has had SACD announcements in years past at CEDIA.

That's a good insight John. We may hear even more then.

Based on your numbers, I think Sony clearly has a number of models out with Super Audio capability. In my Best Buy, I saw the DAV-FC7 which is a good seller according to the department manager and the C990, both are HTIBs, add in the Pioneer 563 and you have three SACD capable machines. The manager said many people like to purchase the HTIBs due to the convenience and low cost.

So based on John's count, all 5 HTIBs have Supe Audio and 2 DVD players have Super Audio. One thing to keep in mind is that some of the DVD players are outdated on the site so the picture of current offerings may be better than this count indicates. Last time I checked the store, they had even more so perhaps the time of year has something to do with it. Also Sony has some inexpensive DVD players with Super Audio in it, which is important for those not in ES territory. In the ES line, we 4 SACD players alone.

This is far from abandoning support of Super Audio. Also, you have to figure that this is the time of year where Fall products are announced so it may be premature to draw conclusions about Sony's product commitment.

Equally important is what other manufacturers do. I suspect we will see many universal players once the LSI chips are incorporated into new product design.

 

[Phil A]

Sony's last release on SACD hardware was June. I would suspect that with the new chips available that the next batch of major hardware announcements won't be until CES. It will be interesting to see if Sony or others offer universal players or whether we will continue to see stand alone one hi-rez format players. Below are the last couple of Sony press releases:

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3730

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3374

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Good links Phil. Thanks for the background work.

It seems Sony offers SACD capability at every price point. There are players announced in these releases at $250, $600, $800 and we have a new flagship player at around $3,000. Plus the 999ES is around $1,000-great video by the way...

I suspect the new chip will lower Sony's entry SACD player to the $100 range before long. I think there is still the 715 DVD player that costs around $160-180 street.

Only the lower priced, recently announced players do not have Super Audio.

Again, little evidence of Sony abandoning support of the format.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Here is the story on the new SCDXA9000ES player at $3K due up soon (Fall).

http://www.stereophile.com/shownews.cgi?1662

I have heard that the new Qualia line will also offer Super Audio for you wealthy fans of music.

http://www.stereophile.com/shownews.cgi?1668