What happened to the diva's? (1 Viewer)

[Rob Rodier]

If you look at the past history of reputible manufacturers products, they usually last quite a while and only a breakthrough will warrant a new line or replacement. This crap about how you need something new every 8 months is rediculous. Do it fast vs do it right. Sadly, in most cases fast wins.

My statement was general, and not directed at anyone specific.

Relax, this is a ht forum, not a hospital.

I am glad everyone is happy with their speakers, that is the bottom line.



-rob

 

[Russell _T]

As the owner of a B&M audio store, Matt jesty is a known detractor of the Internet only business model, and started this thread for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble. When it comes to AV123, and their well known integrity, Matt's intention will inevitably bite him on the ass.

 

[Shane Martin]

Russell must be a mind reader because I don't see where he said he started this for a malicious purpose. I, personally am not fond of the internet business model and don't plan on taking the risks involved here but I might based solely on the posts by the owners of av123. Assuming stuff gets your in trouble.

 

[Mark LS]

Hello Matt... and everyone else...

I'll be quite busy for the next few days... but I promise to drop back here and discuss what I can in detail later...

Trade Dress is VERY very real... and in my case, I was not at all interested in fighting all of this out in some court room. There is of course more to be said, and I will take the time to answer these questions and comments later in the week...

Today I have a big demo to run... but over the next few days I should have some time...

Thanks... and all the best...

mls

 

[Matt Jesty]

As the owner of a B&M audio store, Matt jesty is a known detractor of the Internet only business model, and started this thread for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble. When it comes to AV123, and their well known integrity, Matt's intention will inevitably bite him on the ass.
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Not an owner, just a happy salesman...but I was honestly, just trying to get some info on if this scenario might be repetative as I had heard (in rumor)...I have refrained from comment...

 

[Mark LS]

Greetings from PanYu City, PRC…

I chose to wait a few days before offering a longer and more durable reply to these many questions and comments offered in this thread.

I would ask you all to realize how difficult it can be (sometimes) to offer replies to issues like these without sounding completely self-serving, ridiculous… or redundant.

I’m going to just “lay it down”… and hope the spirit of the replies will come through…

This one first…

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I think that the most likely scenario is that the people at Swan brewed up rumors that B&W gave a crap about about their tweeter design. Giving the false impression that the divas were in the same league as the NT lineup.

That is at least one of the rumors I heard elsewhere.

Now they are onto the next cow.

-rob

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Let me flatly state that NOTHING could be further from the truth… The people at Swan’s did none of this… and in fact… it was ME alone that pulled the plug for fear of legal entanglement…

The issue was Trade Dress alone… and not the “quality” of the tweeters used… No false impressions were made by ANYONE in my company… Do we believe then (as we do now) that the DIVA line gives the NT lineup a real run for the money (when you consider a dollars vs. dollars comparison)… Heck Yes… and we believe that even more so with Rocket…

And, BTW… I really take umbrage to the “Now they are on to the next cow” comment… You do not know me sir… but if you did… you’d know that this is not how I operate… Then this...

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Think it's coincidence that the Wharfedale Pacific line which also had the top mounted tweeter, was also redesigned with a traditional mounting ? Trade dress infringement is quite real.

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No it was NOT… and I’m aware of other changes a few others have instituted… How do I know this… because here in China many of these products are built… and I can see it for myself… I appreciate this respondent’s comment… On to this...

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Probably because they got the Rockets, which are even better!

The last thing I am going to do is to call AV123, I could not care less. I am extremely happy with my "traditional" speakers.

The one question that I would like answered is; even if B&W did put the heat on Swan about the tweeter enclosure, why would that put them out of business? It seems that if these speakers are as good as everyone said they are a simple redesign to conceal the teardrop enclosure would fix things right up.

I am a graduate student, and I realize that I don't know everything, but I would be very upset if I bought these speakers. They should have seen this coming, especially if;

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Once again a bit of bad information… Swan’s did NOT go out of business… quite the contrary… they are a thriving company and really nice group of people… Do I have issues with them (and certainly vice versa)… sure I do… but the fact remains that today they are China’s leading High End supplier… and a source of drivers to companies all over the world… They are hardly out of business…

As to your comments about being a graduate student (and not knowing everything) and being “upset”… well, lets just day I hope you do better research for your Graduate Thesis… av123 and everyone connected with my company goes WAY beyond the “call of duty” on Customer Service and Support and this fact is well documented all over the net… So… Rob… if you get a moment between classes… do some homework… you’ll find out I say what I mean… and I mean what I say… (Good luck by the way in wherever the world takes you… and I mean that also)… and finally...

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That's actually B.S.

The top mounted tweeter is a functional charateristic of the B&W's. Functional features of a product are NOT afforded trademark-type protection (such as trade dress protection). Such protection is only afforded non-functional characteristics of a product.

B&W could only legitimately put the "heat on" if they have patents on the top mounted tweeter.

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I will only reply with the following to this “lawyer’s” comments….

I listen to Counsel… and if my lawyer tells me that this can stick… and it can hurt me… my family… and my company… I’m going to heed his advice and do the right thing… and not be involved in anything that could hurt any of us…

I personally know that of the 4 companies in question… all but one has chosen not to fight it… Could we all be wrong about this… I don’t think so…

And if this person IS a lawyer… my bet is he is not really involved in this area of the law…

I guess that’s really what I wanted to say… I am trying to be very careful with what my family (myself included) and company has earned over the years… Have I made a mistake… I don’t believe so… But only time will tell…

Thanks for the opportunity to respond…

Wishing all of you all the very best…

mls

 

[Rob Rodier]

That is at least one of the rumors I heard elsewhere.

I played the devils advocate for the benefit of discussion. "Benefit-of-discussion" That is what this forum is all about. I clearly stated it was a rumor.
If you leave loose ends expect rumors to fly. It was the curiosity that started this thread.

And speaking of homework, maybe if you had done a little on trade dress you would not have had to drop an entire line.

Honestly, I am sure you people do good business. You have a fanatical following. I did not mean to do any harm. (nor do I think I caused any) It was all about discussion. You get the benefit of all the free marketing that this forum provides. Learn to take the good with the bad.

Best of luck,

-rob

 

[Seth_L]

And speaking of homework, maybe if you had done a little on trade dress you would not have had to drop an entire line.

Could you get any more rude? I doubt it.

Are you a lawyer? Are you qualified to give advice about trade dress? Somehow I doubt it. Reading a few articles on the internet doesn't qualify you to give Mark legal advice. He can probably afford lawyers that charge more per hour than you make in a week. I suspect that they know a bit more about trade dress than you.

Why don't you take your negative, know-it-all, narcistic attitude out of this thread and put it somewhere else to better use. Like perhaps a thread discussing the finer points of the skin effect in copper conductors.

Seth

 

[Mark LS]

I played the devils advocate for the benefit of discussion. "Benefit-of-discussion" That is what this forum is all about. I clearly stated it was a rumor.
If you leave loose ends expect rumors to fly. It was the curiosity that started this thread.
And speaking of homework, maybe if you had done a little on trade dress you would not have had to drop an entire line.
Honestly, I am sure you people do good business. You have a fanatical following. I did not mean to do any harm. (nor do I think I caused any) It was all about discussion. You get the benefit of all the free marketing that this forum provides. Learn to take the good with the bad.
Best of luck,
-rob
Thanks for your well wishes Rob...
and in the interest of providing good information (not only rumors)... I replied in kind...
Discussion IS what it'a all about... and good discussions generally have at least two participants... So, I'm good... if you are also...
I'm not sure what loose ends "I left"... but maybe you can take the time to enlighten a bit on this... I try to keep focus on the products... and providing the best CS&S we can... If you care to... you can e-mail me at [email protected]...
On the Trade Dress issues... you are clearly correct... An interesting side note is that the name DIVA did not even belong to Swan's when we signed our agreements with them. I've not brought this up before... but perhaps when you've spent a day or two out in the business world you'll learn that even the best and most well intentioned of agreements can be flawed when the participants make false or misleading representations.
So... imagine if you will Mark and Co. moving along and doing the best job we can marketing a product line whose name we were not allowed to use... BIG overhand Curve Ball... (Koufax-style)... Strike One... (and I couldn't even get the bat off my shoulder to take a swing)...
In any event... I do take the good with the bad... and when rumors (well intentioned or otherwise) rear their heads... I reply... I can live with it... if YOU can also...
Thanks again for your well wishes...
All the best...
mls

 

[Dan Hine]

Rob,

I'm sorry, but how can you say you only made those comments for the benefit of discussion? You say that you "clearly stated it was a rumor" but that was AFTER you said:

If you leave loose ends expect rumors to fly.

They did fly, and through numerous posts they were put to rest. There were trade dress issues and av123 felt it would be best for their company to not carry the Diva's any longer. Sometimes people get so greedy that they either forget or don't care that the people that make up a company have to look out for their interests too. The Diva line still exists, they just aren't being distributed by av123.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Tons of companies switch vendors/suppliers/etc. all the time. Why automatically cry foul now? And consider this - if I bought Brand X speakers from Tweeter tomorrow and then a month later Tweeter no longer carries Brand X, how much support would I get for them? Maybe my local brick and mortar stores just suck but around here the answer would be none. I'd be told to call Brand X direct or find the nearest current dealer.


Sorry for the rant. It's been a long day.


Regards,

Dan Hine

 

[Rob Rodier]

Ok , this is my last post. Sorry to disappoint everyone. Even I don't have the time for this, and I have a lot of time.

Seth, you are about a 9 on the tension scale. We are talking about speakers, not your personal life. Relax.

In any event... I do take the good with the bad... and when rumors (well intentioned or otherwise) rear their heads... I reply... I can live with it... if YOU can also...

I can, it is these other guys that I am worried about.

Sincerely wishing you the best, -rob

 

[Dan Hine]

Seth made it clear that he knew the reason, and that he could not reveal it.

Nor did you seek to find the answer. I'm not saying that you were required to, but a simple means of finding an answer was available. Yet you chose to support unfounded rumors instead. There should be no more rumors. Months ago the question was asked and Mark answered the same way that he did yesterday. There were trade dress issues, B&W was mad, and it could have a negative impact on av123 (and therefore Mark and his family as well as his other employees). If Mark's comments yesterday were enough to consider the "loose ends" addressed then his comments in July were too. Therefore, I am not wrong. Sorry.
Note: I am in NO way trying to flame you or otherwise be rude to you. But if you're prepared to make controversial comments with little or no evidence to support them then you also need to be prepared to have people reply and correct you. And in cases like this they they will usually come in a rather abrupt manner.
Regards,
Dan Hine

 

[Mark LS]

Thanks for your reply Rob... Consider it all put to rest...
Please do let me know if you would like to give our speakers a test run... they ARE pretty good...
Appreciated your comments in your mail... and please allow ME to apologize to YOU if any of my answers seemed rude or without the respect you are deserving as a potential end user...
Wishing you all the very best...
mls
(And... Dan... thanks for your comments as well...)

 

[Russell _T]

Rob,
Dan is right. All of the questions you have raised were asked and answered several months ago on the various Forums and in considerable detail by Mark and his company.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

One point of comment here---I believe that the description of legal principles stated above on trademark and trade dress was more or less accurate. However--and this is a very big HOWEVER--that's not the end of the question. Any idiot with the filing fee can sue you for whatever reason and cause you substantial expense. Part of a good lawyer's advice to a business client should be "Is it a big enough deal to fight about if it means risking the time, money and effort that it takes to fight about this, even if you win." Sometimes that means caving in to yahoos who don't really have a claim, but it beats having to pay someone to litigate and prove it.

 

[Mark LS]

Thanks for saying this Mark...
The decision(s) surrounding all of this were not easy for me... but as my lawyer advised... "how much of your retirement fund do you want to spend defending someone else's product / design decisions"...
THAT answer was simple for me...
Wishing you all the very best...
mls