What do you suppose the Salary is for middle class? (1 Viewer)

[VinhT]

*Warning - Random, disconnected thoughts below. I am so floored by the contents of this thread that my thoughts are in a complete disarray and I was unable to come up with an eloquent, coherent reply.*


I find this thread quite shocking. I participate in three forums: HTF, Car Audio Forum, and Glock Talk. Of the three, I have always perceived the HTF community to be by far the most affluent. Thousand dollar subwoofers? Thousand dollar speakers? Thousand dollar amplifiers? Multi-thousand dollar processors? Seems like everyone has them. And I haven't even gotten to source and display components, or any of the other stuff that comprise a home theater!

And now to discover the salaries of a few members - I'm baffled. Home theater is one of the most expensive hobbies I can think of. How do you guys do it?

Anthony, your hypothetical budget is nice and neat, but I just can't fathom how it could possibly work in real life. $200 per month to feed a family of four? I'm thinking more like at least $500.

Jon, your story is one of the most inspiring I have ever heard.

 

[Philip_G]

Well, I think what Vinh is getting at, is people always have money for what they REALLY want. You see people making what I make (under 50k) driving new 40-50 thousand dollar cars, can they afford it? sure, at the cost of other activites I'm sure. Same applies to HT gear. I cut costs everywhere I can to free up resources for other hobbies all the time, it's a balancing act.

 

[Garrett Lundy]

How do I keep up at the most affluent website on the internet with a measly $21,000/year salary. Two ways:

1. I have no life. With no vacations to spend on, not smopking, drinking, doing drugs, renting $500 hookers, I dont really have much else to spend my money on. I'd be a shut-in if I could find a way around work.

2. No kids. this is the big one. Without kids, all my money is disposable!

 

[LaMarcus]

Well mine goes as follows.
$740 (house)
$121 (lights)
$70 (phone)
$45 (water)
$10 (trash)
$55 (cell)
$120 (cable/hi speed)
$440 (car)
$300 (car)
----------
$1901

And we haven't eaten or driven any where and the credit cards haven't been paid yet. Our total house hold is $3200 monthly take home. And it's not enough for me to get that B4-Plus, Panny 500, Rockets, Berklines, and screen that I so desperately need.(not to mention amps and receiver)

So, it kills me to see folks here with all the cool toys I want. And it just makes me think, "Geez what the hell are they making, I need to get a job like that". But I know eventually once me and my fiancee are out of college, we'll be able to do it like the big boys. But I guess I'm just curious as to how the big boys do it. I guess you guys hit the nail on the head, that a lot of people live beyond their means with credit. I guess I should just be thankful for what I do have and also thankful for what I don't have (like a $1000+ credit debt, instead of a $600 one)

 

[Jason GT]

This is an interesting thread to be sure.

I think a big part of having nice things is the constant push of consumer culture -- "consumer" is a term that I find very much disquieting. Personally, my HT toys are the only thing I materially splurge on, and when I look at how much I've spent in the past year and a half it floors me.

LaMarcus, it's really hard to say what one wants and what one needs (what one NEEDS has already been discussed in this thread). No matter what though, don't get caught up in the crazy hardware elevator aspect of things - HT should be about enjoying the movies and music, not about bragging how much cash was spent on gear! You've got some pretty nice stuff. Go watch a movie and enjoy it.

Regarding income - many people here are older (and no offense is meant by this). People that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s. They may be empty-nesters or perhaps may not have kids at all. At this age the mortgage is likely paid off and there are few other liabilities, thus a large amount of disposable. The young uns like us have less gross income and have to pay off mortgages or rent. It's simply not gonna work.

Jon - you're an inspiration; I have no idea how you do it. I'm essentially debt free but being in school and having a place really takes the cake. congrats.

Remember -

Happiness is not having what you want -- it's wanting what you have.

(and I wish I could attribute this quotation, but I can't -- I believe it comes from Buddhist philosophy).

 

[Bill Cowmeadow]

http://www.city-data.com

This site can give you all the info you might want about a certian place in the US.
Salary
Home prices
Population
Education
Ect

Even the big cities have relatively low median income levels.


Bill

 

[Jon_Gregory]

This is long, but it is for those who want to know. I feel that I have left a story hanging in the air.

And thank you for everyones great comments.

Ok, for those that want to know how I do it. I drive a 1995 Nissan pickup that runs and looks brand new and I will drive it into the ground. She drives a 1997 Saturn that also drives and looks excellent. We decided that a house is more important than driving a new BMW down the road. I do all the maintenance myself on all of the vehicles I have ever owned (this can save you a bundle). The only thing that I have ever taken my cars in to have done was to put tires on, only because I don't have the hydraulic machines. We decided a few months ago that we could either rent or buy a house. I live in northwest Florida. A two bedroom apt. was going for around $600 a month. We looked at a few builders in the area and looked into one and found out that for about $100 more a month we could own our very own new house. Our house is a very modest 1500 sq ft, 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage. We could have gone bigger, the mortgage company was willing to lend us an astronomical amount, but we settled on a nice little house for the two of us. She graduated from nursing school last year and has been saving alot and I had been saving as much as I could also. We had a nice chuck for a down payment. I have been lucky with some good paying jobs while I have been in college for my Electrical Engineering Degree. I currently work as what they call a Engineering co-op job with the Navy Civil Service. I work one semester of school full time and then go to school full time the next semester, alternating back and forth. This allows me to save enough when I work to pay bills and live off of while in school for an entire semester. I worked my butt off in high school and got a scholarship that pays for 75% of my schooling and I pay the rest and for my books. The rest of our income comes from her job. Because she works at a hospital, we get excellent, cheap Med. benefits. Like I said before our income comes out to right around $35000-$40000 depending on whether I work 1 or 2 semesters in a year. Once I graduate with my electrical engineering degree I will be making twice what we make now and she will quit work then hopefully to take care of a new addition that will come later in life (you know, a child).

I manage our money very well and all I can say is we live modest lives, but not cheap, and save for what we want. We have multiple accounts that we put money into. I have my retirement that comes out of my check every pay check, she does the same with hers. We also put money away for an emergency fund. We put money away for toys, and about twice a year we get something nice, like my RPTV etc... We alternate between who gets the toy. Like she gets to put up a nice privacy fence that she wants next time since I got my TV, she is really into things for the house.

I guess you can say that we are living the long forgotten American Dream life. (At least this is what everyone tells us).

We live comfortable.
Could we use more money? Sure who can't use more.
Would I be happier with more money? Probably not.

I have found out that money is something that can never make you happy, comfortable, what ever you want to call it. If you live within your means and enjoy the people and things that you have around you other than money, and make good, sound choices in your life, your life will be richer than you ever dreamed.

Jason GT: I like the quote you refrenced and it is how I live my life.

"Happiness is not having what you want -- it's wanting what you have."


The end.

 

[Seth Paxton]

I'd consider a 2 income family in the 40-65K range total to be "middle class".

There are a lot of people doing much better than that, especially when EEs hook up with doctors (not a ref to Jon but to some other friends of mine), etc, but as plentiful as such couples are there are hella more doing far worse than that.


When I graduated I bought a new car, but I've kept it since 97 and have only a minimal desire for a different one since I still enjoy it quite a bit.

I have knocked down a lot of cash on HT stuff over the years, but now that I have comfortable and entertaining setups that are "correct", ie the speakers are balanced, the display can do high def and is reasonably large for the room, the receiver can properly drive the speakers at even the loudest enjoyable levels, I have very little desire to acquire more.

I still buy DVDs, but it has become less and less now that I have a significant portion of catalog titles that I would want to own. This is quite similar to how my CD collection has gone, which slowed way down after hitting 1K titles. I just have nearly everything I want to hear or see and have an environment that is enjoyable to do so in.


So I think it is mentally beneficial to have realistic goals that are semi-preset and based around practical desires like "I would like to be able to put in this album whever I want to and would do so several times a week. I would like my car to provide me with - pleasant handling, decent quickness, comfortable ride, good stereo," and so on. Having the goals clearly defined made it a lot easier to recognize when they had been reached and to curb any "must have more" foolhearty desires created simply by the need to compete or something.

I'm busy living my life, not my neighbor's.

Sometimes I find myself thinking some new thing might be cool, but rarely does it make it past the "would I really use that" test.

This isn't to say I don't spend. I do. But with a focused directive more like biz than an impulse buyer.


We sometimes do go out to eat and if I would cut anything it would be that. Less reward than cost most of the time. Unfortunately it is driven by my wife's peer group. As long as it doesn't get out of hand I figure its okay to ensure her social health and happiness, although she is less practical than I am. Guess its a good thing that I'm the one with the expensive hobby, I'm not sure if she could curb herself as much.



That should be everyone's daily mantra, seriously. Sounds simple but in practice its very tough for many people.

When I spend it is not simply for something I want, but moreso to eliminate something I don't want, say a CPU stand that greatly improves the organization of my living space over the daily discomfort of the old setup.

That way I can look at the purchase everyday and instead of seeking happiness FROM it (which usually leads to buyer remorse because initial happiness fades) I feel satisfaction in a problem that I eliminated, which is a strong feeling since I can easily reflect on the real frustration I had been feeling.

That's why being frugal isn't the key to happiness either. In fact its sort of a deceptive variation of the person trying to acquire wealth for happiness.

I've known many people who suffer as slaves to saving money only to have that money not lead to happiness for them later. It's like they lose track of why they make the money. It's only a bartering tool between the work you do and the THINGS you want, even if its less tangible things like the security of health insurance.

Rather than setting a WEALTH goal I think its far better to set up a list of THINGS wanted and WHY they are wanted. Protective cash against an economic downturn is fine, but of course in a crashing economy your things would have far more value than the cash you have/had in the bank.

 

[Ricardo C]

You, sir, should write a book

Seriously.

 

[Joe D]

This is really an extremely sad fact. Think about it, 8 grand in credit card debt. That is like 18% interest per year on average. Yikes is right.

I wouldn't be able to survive without my credit card, but I always pay it off every month. I hardly ever carry any cash. I should be thankful however for those that pay interest, if everybody was like me they wouldn't offer credit cards because it wouldn't be profitable.

 

[Scott Dautel]

A few more comments from me regarding credit cards ...

I live in Wilmington, DE ... arguably, the credit card capital of the world. MBNA, BankOne, CitiBank, Chase & several others have their credit card ops centered here in Wilmington (go ahead, check & see where you send your checks every month).

I have watched MBNA virtually take over the state of Delaware in the past 10 years (from Dupont). Their beautiful new office compounds dot the city. MBNA sponsers local events, NASCAR, charities, etc. I know many people who have quit conventional jobs to go to work for MBNA Credit ops and are making 100K-200K per year. It's not uncommon for MBNA to reward high performers with luxury automobiles (think Lexus) at Christmas time. Now these MBNA ladder-climbers are working hard, averaging 60 hrs per week. 18%+ interest makes a bank healthy, wealthy and FAT!

My point is that the USA is shifting from a manufacturing/technology based economy (i.e. Dupont) to one of debt & services (MBNA, etc.) It's not a good thing. America is slowly selling off the farm.

To any of you with rolling credit card debt ... you CAN do so much now. Do you really need more than 1 credit card? Also ... there are so many little extra's that everyone is taking for granted ... lose the cell phone ($60), lose the high speed internet ($40->$10), reduce your cable/satellite TV to the minimum ($40) and reduce eating out (???). Put that extra cash to pay off CC's. (250/month = $3,000/yr)

 

[Cam McFarland]

I dont want to burst anyones bubble, but with so many
of our engineering jobs going overseas due to cheap
labor, wages are gonna come WAY down.

I am an electrical designer / CAD operator & am
currently worried for my job due to the fact that
my company (we design offshore oil rigs) & other
similar companies are sending all our work overseas.

Why should they pay us, when it can be sent overseas
to be done by someone for $20.00 - $30.00/hr LESS
than what myself & others are being paid???

This includes all aspect of engineering.


Its all about the bottom line, baby....

 

[Jon_Gregory]

Cam,



I agree with you whole heartedly. The only reason I can say this is that, I have a job already lined up for when I graduate. One of the few engineering fields that seems to be growing is with the Department of Defense. I work there now and there seems to be a shortage of engineers in the Civil Service and they are trying to attract many more engineers with a higher than usual starting salaries (at least where I am).

I am sorry to here and see that the private engineering industry is loosing its foothold in the US. One of the reasons that I went for an engineering degree was because of the notoriety that came with the degree. This seems to have dwendled somewhat.

But the DOD seems to be paying very well right now and the job security with the government is also nice.

To get back to the original post, I think that a $75000 a yr salary here in northwest Florida will propel me into the uper middle class when the time comes.

 

[Cam McFarland]

Yep, I sure hope the DOD doesn't outsource any stuff
overseas........

 

[Todd Hochard]

Your numbers are off, for certain.

My family of four (two small children)-

Food- $600
Car- $500 w/ ins, but $400 would be about bottom line, unless you're driving something OLD.
Gas/Maint- $150, min, if you work, and take the kids ANYWHERE.
Utilities & Phone- $200 MINIMUM (Electric, Phone, Water). I spend about $350 for Electric, Phone, Cable, Water and Cell.
Clothes/Toiletries- I cannot get through a month without $500 minimum going out the door for all this.

My bottom line is somewhere around $2000/month.

LaMarcus- if you want specific guidance, I see one thing IMMEDIATELY wrong, given your income-

You have two car payments. My wife and I (my wife stays home, and I make 50% more than your stated income) have a one car payment house rule. I do occasionally spend money on my old "hot rod" (probably $100/mo on average), but we only pay on one vehicle. This has been KEY to our financial success.

At 34, I've been able to put away a LOT of money over the years. My wife and I saved quite a bit (at one point, we were stashing nearly 30% of our gross) when we both worked BK ("before kids" ), but I was making less then. Even between the two of us, we never earned more than $75k in any year. Even now, with just one income for the past 3.5 years, I still save nearly 15% of our gross. The peace of mind of having substantial savings for my kids' college (even though one is 3, and the other only 4 months), along with a decent retirement (or an extended layoff, if it comes to that), is WAY WAY more valuable to me than a giant house (something I could afford if I chose to) or two shiny new cars (one is quite enough).

I could live comfortably on what I make until I retire, and I could enjoy a reasonable retirement on what I've already saved. I live a modest lifestyle, because I do, in fact, "want what I have." So, put me in your category of "I've made it."

I don't have a house full of new stuff, but I do have nice stuff. I tend to buy higher end stuff, and intend for it to last a long time. The newest piece in my HT is 3 years old (Panasonic RP-91), and the oldest is 15 (DCM Time Window speakers bought in 1989). I have no real intention of replacing anything, except maybe the TV, because my wife has ALWAYS hated it (Pioneer Elite 510HD- WTH is wrong with her?? ) My house is modest (1500 sq ft), but I built it new 10 years ago. We have three cars- a 2002 Acura TL Type S (I bought it new when my 3yo was born- family car for my wife), a 1995 Honda Accord EX (also bought new, in Nov '94- my commuter now, and will continue to be for years to come), and my 1980 Z28- the "hot rod" that I've had for 13 years. I tend to look for long term value, durability and satisfaction in everything I buy, so that I don't have to rebuy, unless I WANT to.

Jon has it EXACTLY right. Kudos to him.

 

[Paul_Fisher]

NEVER!!!!!!!!

 

[LaMarcus]

Well, I WANT a new theater and I WANT a new car. All together totalling about 50k (10k theater/40k car) If I had that I'd be happy with what I have.

BTW, once my g/f car is paid off we are going to double payments on mine. Then once mine is paid off, we're gonna save some money for a year w/no payments, then we'll probably lease something, just to have something really nice for when we go out.

 

[GordonL]

And there's part of the problem...

 

[Lew Crippen]

I’m not trying to be aggressive in LaMarcus’ thread, but I do suspect that the movies and especially TV have expanded out expectation as to what is achievable on middle-incomes. Most TV characters with modest jobs have living conditions that would be envied by most of the population.

To that, add online forums such as this where people spend significant amounts of money on displays, speakers, DVDs and on and on. While there may be nothing at all wrong with this, many of us target one thing about which to be extravagant—not home theater, cars, houses, restaurants, travel, boats and on and on.

But we watch and read about lifestyles where average people are never required to either make spending choices or to suffer the consequences when they do.

No disrespect LaMarcus, but a car would not be enough of a priority to me to consider spending a year’s income (before taxes) on a single automobile purchase. Basically even if you were not paying interest on a loan, that would be about 18–20 months net income, with no allowance for insurance, gas and maintenance.

Now I happen to think that this is affordable on your income, but only if it is your one priority.

 

[Chris]

Realize, the money people make versus what they report are two different things.

Ebay doesn't 1099 anyone, and I mow a few lawns here and there *laugh* or something like that.