Velodyne DD18 Subwoofer Review!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[Michael R Price]

Sure you can compare frequency response, they're both MLS quasi anechoic. But comparing those distortion numbers is silly. The DD-18 is probably good for sort of lower distortion (say 1% vs 3%) at regular levels, but it's clear it cannot be pushed as loud as the B4. I would be real interested seeing a comparison between the DD-18 and a sealed Tumult.

 

[dave alan]

I'm gonna hafta follow TV's lead here and ask for 'hard evidence' that proves that anyone can reasonably expect 16 dB of gain going from ground plane to in-room.

Once again, a thread is hijacked with the SVS rhetoric, most of which really has been pure nonsense.

The SVS Bwhatever is equivalent to dragging your 30" range from your kitchen into your HT on a dolly. Good luck with strategic placement. Then, make room in your rack for a 60# pro amplifier and parametric EQ and whip out your $30 SPL meter, test disc, graph paper, etc., and settle in for some tweaking that straddles the line between tedium and ridiculous.

Velo was awarded Best of 2003 for subwoofer technology because it deserves it, no question, and every sub maker will soon be copying it's next-step advances.

With a street price of around $3500 (I've only heard this, but wouldn't mind some verification on that), I don't know how 'well heeled' you have to be, but I'm sure many people have more than that invested in SVS and the required outboard equipment.

Dan's post was right on.

WayneO, thank you.

Edward...please implore the SVS people to create their own forum, or, at least start a 'Why the new Velo is not better than the SVS whatever' thread elsewhere...really. The B4+ ultra improved passive subwoofer has been afforded more than ample virtual ink on many forums.

Also, in the past, you've told me how great a subwoofer evaluation mind has 'Doc Johnson', but here you accuse him of borderline abusive misapplication of a product's intended use.

I want to hear everything I can about these new Velo models. I've read too much about SVS already.

Technical jargon aside, as I am already convinced that Velodyne hasn't released a technically wanting flagship, I would like this thread to continue, and hopefuiiy learn more about it's sonic sig, warranty, repro abilities with various system setups and source material, etc., etc., from people who have one or have heard one.

Sorry, IMHO, YMMV, smiley face, etc.

 

[Dan Hine]

Well, since I'm picky:



The K1 only weighs 32lbs and there are equally capable amps like QSC's PLX series which only weigh 21lbs...like I said, just being picky.

 

[John S]

One comment...

Subwoofers do seem to be one of the last real battle grounds for product loyalty.. lol

I simply suggest people get the meanest sub they can afford. This course usually brings satisfaction to most people's HT experience.

I just don't see a lot of B4's or DD-18's in many peoples HT future at all.

How many SVS owners out there on this forum use the B4?
Just curious.

 

[Robb Roy]

dave alan,

This thread went wrong with an inappropriate comment (one that I felt was also a misinterpretation of Johnson's statement/intent). While my gentle (i.e., I did not want to insult anyone or any product) attempt to correct that obviously failed, the ensuing discussion was comprised majoratively of civil, intelligent debate about two phenomenal products by some very intelligent people. At the risk of being too blunt, if a conversation is about a topic you don’t care to hear (or are tired of hearing) about, then don’t join that conversation. (Personally, I’m still hoping to learn more about the close proximity microphone and how it might compensate for room gain in Johnson’s tests.) Telling people to essentially shut up and/or go away is every bit as unacceptable as "Pfft".

-Robb

 

[ChrisHeflen]

I'm just wanna say thanks to WayneO and Dave Alan.
Once again another sub thread high-jacked by SVS owners.
I have a Paradigm and I start cringing when anybody mentions they are looking at getting one because you know somebody is gonna jump in with SVS and how much better they are. I don't even wanna say to that person who is looking here's what I like about mine because it will be undermined by somebody with an SVS.
I will never buy an SVS because of this.

On that note: Merry Christmas you bunch of posting people!

 

[dave alan]

Robb Roy,

Over the past 15 months, I have responded to only 2 posts that personally sort of touched a nerve. The above post was 1 of them.

As I apologized in advance, let me take this opportunity to repeat it to you personally.

Sorry.

Dan,

I stand corrected. In fact, one of my favorite pro amps for bass is the Stewart World 2.1 (2100W, bridged mono into 4 ohms), weighing in at a whopping 16 pounds. Thanks for reminding me

 

[Edward J M]

Guys:

I was actually defending Velo in this thread. Not once did I ever say one was better than the other. And I am generally not one to make outrageous and indefensible comments about brand superiority. I object to rhetoric as much as the next guy.

I was actually trying to debunk the early generic comment that the SVS bested the Velo. That determination simply cannot be made with the information generated in the two reviews and I explained why. The MLS FR data is valid and comparable for the two; the THD data is not comparable between the two.

I support Doc Johnson in general in that he generates objective data in his sub reviews instead of just subjective evaluations like some other reviewers. My criticism regarding his decision to test the B4 with all ports open has been consistent from the outset, and has not changed.

As I said in my first post, the DD-18 is a world class subwoofer, and is probably the most technologically advanced product of its kind, and deserves every kudo it garners. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy with one, and I've actually scheduled a demo with the DD-18 and am awaiting arrival of same at a local dealer.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Robb Roy]

dave alan,

Thanks, and I felt bad/awkward about my post as well. I share people's frustration with blanket claims of a brand's ability. I may be an SVS fan, but I don't think a PCi "stomps" a Velodyne DD18 (or is even in the same class of subwoofer). I share WayneO's feelings when I see a post consisting of nothing more than "SVS Rocks!". Just about every brand (Velodyne included) has those folks who jump into threads inappropriately, and they do make other proponents of those products look silly.

I was just happy to see Ed and Dan, once the thread had been hijacked and the damage done, discuss Johnson's tests intelligently and civilly. To me, at least this thread had turned into a sharing of knowledge and a good discussion.

I hope that neither of our comments will cause anyone to halt the discussion, and that we can all learn more about the tests conducted, and the products tested. AND I hope that you and I get to share a beer and a movie one day.

-Robb

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I'm gonna hafta follow TV's lead here and ask for 'hard evidence' that proves that anyone can reasonably expect 16 dB of gain going from ground plane to in-room.>Once again, a thread is hijacked with the SVS rhetoric, most of which really has been pure nonsense

 

[Zack_R]

Me too. The one thing missing in lot of reviews is the explanation as to why a reviewer tested the way they test. This leaves us, the reviewee, having to infer / speculate (appropriately or not) our own reasoning. I like Johnsons' reviews for the objectiveness but I wish he would use a standard template for testing. This way he could have one archived page for what the purpose of each test does and why he does them the way he does.

I am going to assume that he did the spl max servo distortion test at 4 inches because this more accurately represents a quasi-anechoic chamber with respect to how the MSL program operates. The reasons I can see for backing out the mic another 14 inches for maximum spl and minimum servo control is to either allow for some room gain or to give a more real room playback level or to see how lenient the servo system operates. Otherwise I think he would have just left the microphone at 4 inches and cranked the volume up and reduced the servo setting to 1.

It would have been interesting to see how the max servo setting compared to the minimum servo setting at 14" or vice versa but for whatever the reason, it didn't happen.

I personally like the eq feature for music as playing a properly calibrated system at 95 dbs is very loud. But I also think when watching movies either the servo system or the small size of the subwoofer cabinet (maybe both) mitigates a lot of this eq benefit.

In the review John Johnson mentioned that he hit 95-100 dbs on his favorite action oriented films. Since this generally represents bass peaks you can probably correlate that he is watching these movies at no more than -12 to -15 dbs below reference.

As far as the PCi reference, I never said that it would stomp a Velo, sound better, was in the same class, or play louder. All I did was point to a very similar objective test performed by the same reviewer in the same room. I don't see anything inappropriate about making this comparison. After all, in the review John Johnson stated that the servo chip was one of them the two main improvements to the DD series.

John Johnson reviewed the HGS-18 in December of 1999 but did not include the MSL test. He did mention that he could achieve 123 dbs at 31.5 hz with a corner position and 108 dbs at 25 hz.

 

[Robb Roy]

Zack_R,



When I made my post about that, I was in no way referring to anything you'd said (or anyone else said) in this thread. I was just pointing to some of the exaggerations we see in general. I apologize if you thought I was pointing at you or anyone else in particular.

-Robb

 

[dave alan]

Robb Roy,

Amen.

TV,

I appreciate the words "If EVERYTHING remains constant...", and the paragraph that follows. That's the sort of clarification that needs to follow a generalization like the one I cited, and Thank You for that.

As to the next 2 paragraphs, 99.9% don't make a right, and shootouts/showdowns don't interest me. Good information on the DD-18 currently does.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Yes this is a good sub,and Velodyne usually releases good products, period.
I really like the EQ feature though not a first[Infinity had R.A.B.O.S. years ago],maybe a good start for a trend?
Having said that 5 grand is just way too much for a single sub,even as good as this one.
I agree with Edward,if you a "tweeker",and don't have 5 grand,you could achieve better results for far less.
Wow it has ryme to it.

 

[steve nn]

Myself being a previous Velodyne owner have allot of respect for the product and the company as a whole. I was in a pinch a time or two also and Velodyne always backed me up. Their a industry leader and for good reason imo. Now with that being said in my own non professional in room testing I decided to move on over to SVS because of the cost of performance equal to the dollar factor.

As far as a comparison on the two products mentioned, there can not be one for the lack of a (constant). To me that is a easy given. In my mind it would be a very welcomed contest indeed.

The excitement expressed on this Forum in respect to SVS used to make me nauseous and for that very reason I held out on trying one out. That was my problem and not the members of the Forum.

 

[Robert Cowan]

im a velodyne dealer, and i have listened and played with the DD-15, but not the DD-18. i plan on getting the DD-18 in january. im not considering SVS becuase for now i can afford (being a dealer), the velodyne.

i find it very interested how "loyal" SVS owners are. i would love to try out some of their stuff, however i would feel cheated that i could build the same thing (most likely better) for less in my basement. i cannot, i repeat, CANNOT build anything close to a DD-18 in my basement.

the fact of the matter is, from SVS you get an inexpensive, yet very good value sub. if you want the best, you pay for it. those pro room EQ things are nice, but one that is custom tailored to YOUR sub would be better. plus, you get a flat response but have not yet addressed distortion levels. i can crank the DD-15 up to full blast and it still still stay musical... try making any other sub do that.

one of these days, i will trade in the velodyne and get a few SVS's... (i was thinking 4 of those tower column things, even though they look like hell). but until then, the velodyne will be the king.

 

[Mark C.]

Uh-Oh

 

[Mike Sloan]

Robert Cowan,

What exactly did you say...you started off ok...and then you lost me?

You can build a better sub (than the B4) in your basement...could you build one for me?

 

[Dan Hine]

Ummm...did you miss the B4+ review? Except for at 15hz (which Edward already made the point of necessary power for results outside) the B4+ was VERY close to the same levels as the DD-18. Additionally, with the B4+ and other items like Acoustic Visions Everest, a Rutledge Audio equivalent or something I could put together you can STILL crank it all the way up with no problems. I would suggest you, as a dealer and being expected to know about products besides your own if anyone asks, should reread what has been said here and in the third party reviews.


- Dan Hine

 

[Robert Cowan]

well, about the building comment...

i bet i could build it in my basement (im an avid DIY'er when it comes to audio). there really is nothing overly special about the SVS subs. its a simple design, and because of this, they are good products. and no, im not building one

as far as the comments regarding the DD-18, yeah, i should have done more research. im assuming that the SVS has a higher distortion level than the DD-18 in general (given that MOST speakers as well as subs have VERY high distortion levels, 2% is staggeringly low). that was an assumption, and possibly an incorrect one.

the fact of the matter is, i havent heard an SVS sub, and there is NO way im going to blindly order one without listening.

i did with my current deftech, but that was only because it was free... if i had paid, i would have listened first. if anyone is in the denver/boulder area and has an SVS, i would truly like to hear it. i have yet to run into anyone thats interested in SVS over anything i sell, so its not an issue, but maybe some day it will come up.