United States F1 Grand Prix 2005 (1 Viewer)

[AjayM]

How about all teams must notify the FIA that they will not race on or before the 45 minute mark before the start of the event? The organized protest of going out for the parade lap and then going into the pits is also against the rules (this one is going to be the biggie).

This isn't your average club racing group here, these teams are contractually obligated to race, they need to have a VERY good reason if they aren't and they have to follow a very specific procedure if they aren't going to race. None of that happened this last weekend. They had the good reason not to race, but instead of doing things by the book, they decided to get into an ego contest with the FIA. The problem is that the rulebook, of which they all know and agreed with/signed contracts to adhere to, is against them.

Andrew

 

[Yee-Ming]

Yes, equipment failures happen all the time, but when a team is confronted by a failure, they retire and don't go asking the FIA to retrospectively change something to allow the substandard equipment to hold up in the race. As has been noted several times (not just this thread but in all similar forums discussing this), Ferrari/Bridgestone had substandard tyres earlier this season and never asked for any favours, why should Michelin be allowed such a huge one now? After all, Minardi doesn't ask for (and would never get either) a handicap either of, say, a 3-lap headstart in view of its obviously uncompetitive car, why should Michelin's substandard tyres enable a Michelin runner to ask for a chicane that (wrongly) penalises a Bridgestone runner?

The only reason people are supporting the Michelin point of view is that it affected seven whole teams, but if you agree in principle that a single team cannot ask for and receive a special waiver because its equipment is substandard, the fact that the piece of equipment affects seven teams doesn't change the underlying principle. And again, the post-Senna issue is different since it affected ALL teams. So, for instance, if there was only one tyre manufacturer, then in those circumstances they'd be entitled to say something should be done.

Indeed, the rule changes this year were arguably designed in some way to peg back Ferrari's perceived dominance, and in the early rounds when Ferrari was indeed not competitive, everyone was touting how the rules had worked. Now suddenly the shoe is on the other foot (the tyre is on the other wheel? ), Ferrari/Bridgestone were completely competitive and ALL the Michelin runners were not, it's suddenly Ferrari's fault for finally getting it right (together wtih Bridgestone), and NOT Michelin's for screwing up?

Don't get me wrong, I applaud Michelin for having the balls to stand up and admit they messed up and for not compromising driver safety, but what the 7 Michelin teams were asking for was ridiculous.

 

[Sami Kallio]

And that's exactly what the Michelin teams did, they retired. The push for safety changes were so there would have been a race, now there wasn't.

 

[Sami Kallio]

So would it have been different if they would have completed a race lap and then retired? A team isn't able to retire within the rules anytime if there is a safety issue?

 

[AjayM]

There were viable alternatives given (running the apron, changing tires, etc), but they decided to make this statement to the FIA rather than race uncompetitively.

Andrew

 

[Sami Kallio]

That's laughable. All those options would have had the same result, no actual race. The same to just pull into the pits.

 

[AjayM]

Oh well that's a good reason to ignore contract agreements. Also I wonder why a number of those teams even bother to show up at all on these race weekends since they have little hope to actually "race" and be competitive.

 

[Keith Mickunas]

So Sami, if they did put in the chicane, how would they have accomodated the Bridgestone runners? They brought a more durable tire that was in all likelihood slower, as those things tend to work. All the Bridgestone cars would have been at a disadvantage because they brougth suitable equipment to the race.

Furthermore, they would not have the opportunity to set up the cars properly, including the aerodynamics, brake systems, and suspension, for the track with a chicane in it. What if the extra use of the brakes caused a brake failure at the end of the front straight and a driver or someone else was killed because of that? Would Michelin and their seven teams accept the blame for that? Somehow I doubt it.

From the way it sounds, it had nothing to do with the surface. It had to do with the fact that the tires couldn't sustain the load. Testing and simulations should have led them to this conclusion earlier on. Bridgestone opted to sacrifice speed for durability, Michelin should have done the same.

I just hope that Ferrari can earn enough points to overcome their gains in this race and any that may be made via penalties so that they properly earn their championship.

 

[Yee-Ming]

I agree, no actual race. But whose fault was it? Michelin's, and consequently the seven Michelin runners. Why then penalise the Bridgestone runners to accomodate Michelin's mistake in bringing substandard tyres?

Imagine BMW screwed up by bringing an "ordinary" Z4 car instead of the F1 car, or Mercedes brought an SLR, or even if Ferrari brought a 575, to Monte Carlo. Do you then, to "run a race", penalise the other 9 by changing the track from the existing street track to an alternate, even slower circuit, through other streets of Monte Carlo, in order to slow down the other teams such that the production car just might be able to keep up? Of course not. So why is adding the chicane to unnecessarily slow down Bridgestone an acceptable solution?

As for the Michelin "offer" that Bridgestone start up front and Michelin runners run for no points, that's equally not a race. Maybe a spectacle, yes, but not a race if 14 out of 20 cars have no real interest in the outcome. And for that matter, since a Michelin runner could not score points in the race regardless of placing, what's to stop him from "taking out" Schumacher or Rubens to prevent them from completing the race and scoring points? I can see how if with a few laps to go, any of the drivers ahead of them in the overall championship could be sorely tempted to do so, to prevent Schumi (or Rubens) scoring 10 points without reply to close the gap.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Well as a local who has gone to every race, including this one, and has heard nothing but F1 talk the last 2 weeks I can tell you that Michelin and the teams are 100% to blame and everyone around here thinks so, including people like Derek Daly.


This was 100% political and very likely pre-meditated to some degree. There are numerous holes in the Michelin/teams excuses.

1) The Michelin teams DIDN'T EVEN BRING THE 2nd "SAFE BUT SLOWER" set of tires that they are allowed. Didn't bring them. As far as anyone I've heard from knows this was the first time this year that has happened.

There is no good reason for that to have been the case.


2) EVERYONE knew that this was a TOYOTA ONLY issue. There have been BS rumblings about "Speed noticed some issues", etc, but per Jacque Villenueve himself his team had ZERO ISSUES on SAT. He was quoted Sunday morning before the race (from SAT) in the Indy Star that (I'll paraphrase but the quote can be easily found in the SUN morning "Michelin issue" story) "Everyone knows only 2 drivers from the same team are having problems. Our tires are just fine and ready to race". Read the full article

It wasn't until after the "protest" that Jacque changed his tune to "it was unsafe".

BTW, idiot Ralf wrecked in the same spot last year, so no surprise there. His reaction then was similar "yikes, that hurt, this is dangerous". Really? No shit. This year he was in much better shape because Indy extended the SAFER barrier to that section.

3) It is ridiculous to expect rules to be changed for ANY sporting event 1 hour before the event in order to "balance" the field.

I hate Ferrari as much as anyone, but obviously if this was a pro-Ferrari change being requested all the Ferrari haters would have blasted such a ridiculous last minute proposal.

If you lose 2nd gear you don't get to say "hey, let's make the track so I won't have to use it".

4) THERE WAS NO SAFETY RISK FOR THE DRIVERS. Just drive slower, its what you do all the time to maintain safety. I mean the last time I checked no drivers refuse to slow down for a hairpin just so they can have a better racing speed.

You run at the speed your equipment can handle and you do it every week. If a Renault can corner better at 85 than Ferrari you don't alter the corner so Ferrari can make it at 85 also. You just drive F'n slower.


5) Adding a chicane with no testing on it and without the chance to modify the SAFER barriers to accomodate such a change is absolutely irresponsible and begging for people to be hurt. The irony that teams screaming for safety were also screaming for this is incredibly strong.


6) While going slower might have kept teams from keeping up with Ferrari, it would have made people like me, a person actually at the race hosting family and friends as well (some for their first GP) a lot happier. It also would have still represented great F1 points racing since the top teams would have been on even footing.

Everyone says the best part of the race is the start. Since that is some 13 turns before the "unsafe" area everyone would have had the chance to at least see the most exciting part and felt somewhat satisfied. Certainly more than they were. There was ZERO safety issue in taking the green, even by their own lame excuses.

7) It has been STRONGLY suggested via many pit rumors that Toyota planned to come into the pits early anyway when they allegedly qualified with almost empty tanks on SAT. This was being rumored long before the protest. (I see Andrew already posted this too)

8) Many, many people are questioning the lack of response from the manufacturers who just lost tons of publicity and wasted money/effort in preparing for this race. Could it be that much of what happened was already understood and agreed upon?

Even at Canada there was already strong talk of the series breakaway by many teams. Kinda funny that on the biggest, most vulnerable to protest stage, that these teams suddenly took a stand.



Bottom line
Michelin and these teams/drivers made the choice, the choice to screw fans in order to wrest power away from BE. Apparently they missed the whole IRL/CART situation and don't realize that they are about to become Champ Car International if they keep it up.

Bernie is a jerk and he has really been an ass in Indy (no local media allowed in the track on race day, such as the local news doing its morning show from inside, etc). But somehow these idiots managed to make him look like the good guy.

The only real good guys are Tony and Joie who are desperately trying to fix the situation. I predict that Tony's own determination will be the only thing that saves the USGP and keeps it going next year.



Wow. Danica just did 800 of them in a heavier car at a higher speed David. Makes me wonder if F1 drivers truly are the best in the world anymore, or just the most pampered. The days of Mario and AJ racing anything, anywhere with no fear are long gone.

 

[Keith Mickunas]

At one point I heard how there was talk of doing three laps prior to the race if they put in the chicane so the drivers could learn the new layout. Toyota said that would be a problem for them because Trulli didn't have enough fuel. Of course, with that amazing qualifying time, it's not a surprise that he was light. I also heard speculation that Ferrari qualified with a heavy load in anticipation of the Michelin teams perhaps getting different tires, and thus having to move to the back of the field.

 

[AjayM]

Here's an interesting tid bit about Toyota;

They knew the tyre situation was terminal and knew they couldn’t race.

They qualified with three laps worth of fuel in the tank and grabbed the only good publicity going by putting Jarno Trulli on pole.

Kimi Raikkonen actually did the outstanding job of qualifying, being second on the grid with a heavy fuel load, but Toyota nicked all the headlines.

How did they know the tyres were terminal?

Because they now employ Pascal Vasselon, ex-Michelin F1 project manager, who was let go by the French tyre manufacturer at the end of last season, and who is probably now a very relieved man.

He would have told his new team through his contacts that the tyres in question had been made with an inferior batch of materials.

The failures were different from any Michelin had ever seen before. The tyre tread was, in fact, dis-bonding from the casing. It un-bonded. The problem only happened on the heavily-loaded outside left rear tyre and only on the banked section of Turn 13.

But Pascal would also have let his new employers know that this problem would not be related just to the camber and suspension settings of the Toyota, nor would it be simply down to the team running low tyre pressures.

It would happen to everyone. So with that knowledge, they sent Trulli out to grab the pole.

By the way, many at Toyota were bricking it when the idea of installing a chicane took shape on Saturday night. If everyone had raced with a chicane, Jarno would have had to pit on lap two!

Andrew

 

[CharlesD]

I don't understand DC's comment, T13 at 190-200mph flat out is neither the fastest and certainly nowhere near the most challenging highspeed corner in F1. It is the most dangerous in the case of an equipment failure, however, because of the absence of any runoff room (as Ralf Schumacher has found out twice).

Toyota never intended to race as their qualifying fuel load indicates and I've also heard that McLaren and BAR at least experienced no problems with their tires. Its certainly possible that the GPWC teams used this issue as an excuse to send Max & Bernie a message.

We'll see if there is more bullshit at the French GP. The USGP fiasco hasn't hurt interest in upcoming races, apparently Silverstone has sold over 100,000 tickets and is sold out except for some hospitality suites.

 

[Chris Derby]

 

[Yee-Ming]

I was referring to the Michelin-7's proposal that a "show race" be run, with Bridgestone runners allowed to start up front and only they could score points, i.e. Michelin runners could not score points in this race.

 

[Trey Fletcher]

Well, it looks like Michelin has taken responsibility for their actions, and taken some steps to compensate the fans. Their only viable move, and one I applaud them for making.

Link

Michelin offers ticket refunds over boycotted U.S. Grand Prix

Associated Press
Jun. 28, 2005 12:55 PM

INDIANAPOLIS - Tire manufacturer Michelin offered Tuesday to refund money to those who bought tickets for the U.S. Grand Prix, which was boycotted by seven Formula One teams after the company decided its tires were unsafe at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Michelin also said it would buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 race to be given to those who attended the June 19 race during which only six of the usual 20 drivers participated.

"Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the Indianapolis race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators," the company said.

A message left with Indianapolis Motor Speedway officials was not immediately returned.

 

[CharlesD]

Hmmm... interesting. And if each of the seven teams that refused to race also bought 20,000 tickets that would mean free tickets for the 06 USGP for everyone...