Two opposing views on who will win the HD battle (1 Viewer)

[Rob_Walton]

BD players on the market are from Samsung, Panasonic, and Philips. The only releases Sony have made so far are software, and there are plenty of alternatives from other studios if you don't like the Sony BDs. In this context the phrase "Sony botched this format from Day 1" is simply an impossibility.

 

[Cees Alons]

By delaying their hardware roll-out (both BD-players as well as the # of PS3s)? By releasing subpar BDs? By finally publishing now that there may be problems producing the discs?
It may look impossible, but they managed it.

There's very little negativity towards BD expressed on this forum and elsewhere that's not directed at Sony!


Cees

 

[Rob_Walton]

Warner didn't botch HD DVD with their release of some 1080i mastered titles, and the poor initial offerings from SPHE haven't botched BD either. And just as Toshiba didn't botch their format by constantly delaying the release of their players, neither have Sony botched the BD format by delaying their player, particularly when there are good (better?) alternatives already available.

As for difficulties producing discs, this isn't something that anyone in the BDA has ever tried to deny. It's a new tech, after all. The argument has been about the level of difficulty involved, with some of the more extreme HD DVD voices being proven to be quite wide of the mark in their dire predictions.

 

[Cees Alons]

Ah, so in your opinion, Sony didn't botch it, the other companies delivered the players we need, the software now becoming better - so actually there's nothing wrong.

So, one wonders how come BD is in such a deplorable state at this very moment (may change!) compared to HD DVD?


And your "more extreme HD DVD voices being proven to be quite wide off the mark in their dire predictions" are now said by Sony to have been right (at least: according to this article):

(Emphasis by me.)
Quoted from this Business Week article (about the notebook battery disaster):
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...tm?chan=search


All the fault of zealous HD DVD proponents? Don't think so!


Cees

 

[ppltd]

But the point is, they don't. All of the stated 'proported' advantages are so much bunk until become a reality. As I stated, when all of these massively wis-bang features start showing up, I will reevaluate my opinion. Until then, if given the choice between buying a title in HD or BD, HD wins hands down, as it has delivered on it's promises, not promised to deliver.

 

[ppltd]

And pertending BD it has the ability of producing better picture and sound quality than HD has is ignoring current facts. It is still the HD releases that have set the bar, not BD.

 

[ppltd]

The current BD problems and release issues is the single driving force that has pushed most early BD supporters on this forum directly into the hands of the HD camp. Bottom line is, I but HD for the picture and sound of the film, nothing else. I have little concern over the special features, multiple language tracks. If the format can not even deliver on these basics in a consistent manner, what does it matter what it's potential is.

 

[Harpozep]

I don't know about that. I work here in the trenches everyday with comic folk ( I own a large pop culture/Comic store ), gaming folk, and the general fantasy crowd. A LOT, A REAL LOT , as in MANY of them, numbering in the hundreds went for the PS2 as their preferred means of DVD playing for quite a while. Then after a few years, many of them bought a cheap player ( Heck, I currently run a $30.00 Daewoo in the store after using Sonys and Panasonics for years ).

I hear them saying the same for Blu Ray. They will enjoy the PS3 for its ability to play these discs rather than invest in a separate player. Never mind that the only current player is a grand US!

Actually, several of these guys are planning on reselling the PS3s right when they get them. Profit being a greater motivator than any other desire with this game console.

I find myself wanting to be in the Blu Ray camp, but the sheer price of the player makes it a no-brainer to wait. Besides, I have hooked one up at the local HT shop, and we were all more than underwhelmed by the two releases we put in the Samsung.
I just picked up the latest Sony KDS-R60XBR2 and really feel the urge to see some HD from optical disc. Let's see how long I can hold out......
Actually, I'd buy into the format that releases LOTR first.

I have been waiting two years to play the ones I have on SD DVD. I wanted a large enough screen do them justice. Now I have the screen, am thinking of playing them and will. My Pioneer EliteDV-59 AVI upconverts real nicely, so perhaps I can wait this format war out..............

 

[Ron-P]

For twice the price (or more) BD offers nothing better then HD-DVD currently does now and for the foreseeable future. I also just read that no universal remote will work with the PS3 as it's bluetooth, can anyone confirm this? If true, there's no way this will become a replacement for a stand alone player for movie viewing.

From day one I've planned to buy into BD (when the player prices drop) but at this point even if they did I won't buy in. BD is a much risker investment then HD-DVD ever was.

 

[Shawn Perron]

Yeah it's nice to know it's worth debating with you because we obviously stand such a good chance of changing your mind.

 

[Harpozep]

I deal with any number of consumers who are tired of extras and never make the time to watch them. They only have so much time in their day and just want a good looking movie with decent sound. Six hours of movie deconstruction is not for everybody. These same folks would prefer to not get the extra disc if they have to pay for it. This is not me, but a growing number of my customers. So the axiom that "Consumers demand extras" May not be ringing as true as it once did.

That said, I can envision just the one disc being needed regardless of the extras for most Blu-Ray releases. The same may not be true of HD DVD, where another disc may be needed and the package priced up a bit accordingly.
Remember, I own neither, but the first player to sell for around $250.00 will have me onboard. I'd even pay double that for a combo player is one ever materializes.

 

[Shawn Perron]

Personally, I would rather 100% of the disc was dedicated to the highest possible video and audio quality with extras being either relegated to a 2nd disc or not included at all. Unfortunately not many people are with me on this one. The concept of "superbit" I was wholeheartedly behind, even if the implementation rarely worked out that way. HD should be no compromises on the audio and video. If you are willing to compromise on audio and video quality, dvd is readily available in your local store. I'm far more concerned with where these 2 formats will be at in a few years then I am where they are right now. The less room there is for compromising the audio and video in the future, the happier I'll be. As long as HD-DVD is limited to 30GB, I can't really publically support it. It'd be like the boss at work asking me if I'd rather have a 30 cent raise or a 50 cent raise. While I'd be happy to get either, I'm not going to sit there and act like I'd rather have had the 30 cent raise.

There are quite a lot of people that love extras. So much so that Best Buy and Walmart can lure people into thier stores just because they have exclusive bonus discs. They could probably eliminate extras and 80% of the market wouldn't care, but they will not alienate that other 20% of the sales if they can possibly help it.

 

[Cees Alons]

But what would you say if your boss asked you if you wanted a 50c bigger wallet or rather a 30c bigger wallet - and then your salary stayed the same?


Cees

 

[Shawn Perron]

Not really an apt analogy since any studio that bothers to use a BD50 is going to put probably put more more then then 30GB on it or they would have just crammed it onto a BD25. There is still the possibility of a studio cheaping out with a BD25, but atleast they have the option to go bigger then 30GB if it's needed. If a studio needs more then more then 30GB for just the movie, say an extended lord of the rings with multiple lossless audio tracks and commentaries, then they either have to compress the video more, eliminate lossless audio tracks or split it onto 2 discs as they did on the DVDs. In a situation where a studio doesn't feel a title will sell enough to warrant a 2nd disc on HD-DVD, they will just compress the main feature more or go without a lossless audio track at all to fit the extras and audio tracks on.

I'm not claiming all BD movies will look better then HD-DVD, but no matter what a studio needs, as the specs stand now, they can never use more then 30GB of space or use more then 30Mb/s even if the quality will suffer without it. Will this be every movie? No. Will it happen eventually? Of course. We suffered through the DVD years with overly filtered and overly compressed movies, but we have a chance to minimize the opportunity for it happening again.

 

[Cees Alons]

Nope.
Not necessarily. In fact several releases have already been announced of BD50 discs, that have an equivalent (let's just say: certainly not worse) release on HD DVD, in a few cases the HD DVD already being available.

And that's only the ones we can check, because they will be released on both formats.


Cees

 

[Shawn Perron]

Right now doesn't even matter. I'm talking long term. As far as I have seen, we've had one manufacturer that left agressive DNR enabled on thier player and a bunch of BD movies that used crappy masters. There has yet to be a BD movie release that can be proven to have looked badly because of the encoding. Using subpar masters is not in any way related to the BD technology, storage or the players. As you say movies that appear on both formats are identical... so why support the format with less room for the future?

No one has stepped forward with a legitmate reason not to favor Blu-Ray over HD-DVD other then your copy protection point. Pricing is only a temporary difference that won't matter in a few years. Yes HD-DVD can match Blu-Ray at this moment.

I've seen reports by several people at a Sony demo where they showed Click BD50 on one side and the D5 master on the other side. They looked exactly identical. So what if Click wasn't the most amazing looking movie ever? It looked exactly like the D5 master and still has uncompressed LPCM. What more can you ask for?

 

[ppltd]

You mean BD has the potential match HD at this moment.

 

[Ron-P]

Now that's backwards, HD-DVD set the bar, BD has been playing (and still is) catch up.

 

[PeterTHX]

How so?
Picture quality is the same.
There are more uncompressed soundtracks on BD.
BD has more studios.
BD has more players.
Interactivity? Fox's releases are less than a month away.
Players sold...yeah. Ask again Nov 18th though.

 

[Cees Alons]

Yes, but even many of the strongest of proponents of Blu-ray aren't buying.

I just checked the names of several members (even in this thread) who seem blindly in favour of BD and (1) they didn't buy a BD-player yet (or at least didn't tell us about it), (2) probably own (bought) less Blu-ray discs than I do (did) - which is difficult .

So what does this tell us about the format?


Cees