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TWENTIETH CENTURY FOX HOME ENTERTAINMENT DEBUTS Manufacture-On-Demand DVD SERIES (2 Viewers)

Garysb

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Its seems like we are talking about two different things. You have films like the 1937 Lost Horizon and 1954 A Star Is Born where there is missing footage but the films are released with stills filling in for missing footage and that is OK because its assumed by most that this is the best that is available right now. Then you have Fox releasing pan and scan or non anamorphic versions of the films which is deemed unacceptable because it is assumed Fox can release these films in better condition but won't spend the money to do so. Getting back to the topic under discussion perhaps what I should have said is people on the forum seem unwilling to purchase films with poor film elements if the possibility exists that a better version could be released if the studio were willing to spend the money necessary to restore them. I still believe that Fox is unwilling to do this for a MOD release and that for these releases we will get the best of whatever currently exists. Is there a difference between a studio releasing a film in a condition that you are unwilling to purchase and not releasing it at all? Are you saying you want these films released in whatever condition they are in but you are not going to buy them? Why then do you want them released? All I was saying was that if Fox is only going to release MOD based on what exists it should only release MOD films for which it has good elements.
 

PaulaJ

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Are you saying you want these films released in whatever condition they are in but you are not going to buy them? Why then do you want them released? All I was saying was that if Fox is only going to release MOD based on what exists it should only release MOD films for which it has good elements.
IMHO -- Fox should follow WAC's model, i.e., check the available video master and if it's substandard, remaster from the best elements available. And if it's not the correct aspect ratio, then absolutely remaster. By the way, there are some films WAC have decided NOT to put onto DVD because they only have a substandard video master and they don't have an original element that they feel would yield a new and acceptable master. They do search for better masters if their elements are not in good shape. They're about to release THE HANGING TREE because they found a new intermediate element that "had previously not been identified" and have been able to make a new 16x9 master.
Wish MGM would do the same thing for all those 50s films they're releasing in (ugh) open matte.
Fox should also start a Facebook page like WAC to interact with its customers.
 

Robin9

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PaulaJ said:
By the way, there are some films WAC have decided NOT to put onto DVD because they only have a substandard video master and they don't have an original element that they feel would yield a new and acceptable master.


. . . . . including, so I was informed a few days ago in this very forum, The Mask Of Dimitrios, one of the most perfect films ever made.
 

Matt Hough

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Originally Posted by Robin9 /t/321686/twentieth-century-fox-home-entertainment-debuts-manufacture-on-demand-dvd-series/60#post_3946278
. . . . . including, so I was informed a few days ago in this very forum, The Mask Of Dimitrios, one of the most perfect films ever made.

I LOVE that movie. Made a DVD-R of it off a TCM broadcast because I had to have it.
 

lionel59

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Hi ThomasT, Thanks for the news re TEN NORTH FREDERICK and NEW FACES. I have ordered the former and plan to order the latter soon. I think you're right re Fox's approach to MOD. I predict that they will soon find that Panned-and-Scanned transfers of 'Scope movies just don't "cut it" in this day and age. They should stick to Academy Ratio movies for their MOD releases and let Twilight handle their Wide Screen movies. I just won't buy a cropped image and I'm sure there are many out there like me. Sometimes they are inconsistent. Australia was given a non-anamorphic LBX master for the release of TAKE HER, SHE'S MINE, but I believe that the German PAL release is in 16:9. Do you think any studio will have the audacity to release a 4:3 transfer of a CinemaScope-ratio movie on Blu Ray? If so, that day will be a very sad one.( I guess Fox have already given CinemaxHD a 4:3 transfer of PRINCE OF PLAYERS...... which surely should be a Twilight release given its great Bernard Herrmann score which was released on CD not so long ago by Varese-Sarabande). I think Warner Archive have set the standard that other studios should follow. They now remaster and add trailers etc, obviously recognizing their market and doing their best to please it. I think Fox are just being too "tight" and very shortsighted and treating their own library (and classic film buyers)with a measure of disdain or-at best- thoughtlessness.
 

Robin9

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MattH. said:
I LOVE that movie. Made a DVD-R of it off a TCM broadcast because I had to have it.
That's exactly what I have done! Great minds think alike!
 

DeWilson

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Robin9 said:
. . . . . including, so I was informed a few days ago in this very forum, The Mask Of Dimitrios, one of the most perfect films ever made.
Someone should make a list of films that are not being release, or held back, from the WAC due to the condition of the prints, but are known to have been released on video, laserdisc or air on TCM.
 

ShowsOn

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Thomas T said:
Both the Australian and Spanish releases of King Of The Khyber Rifles are non anamorphic CinemaScope transfers so I suspect any Region 1 would be the same.
Be careful with the Australian version of King of the Khyber Rifles. I found the Bounty Classics version in a department store for $9 that is encoded as anamorphic even though it is a 4:3 letterboxed transfer!
I had to rip and re-author the DVD to make it play as 4:3 on my DVD player in order to see it in the correct aspect ratio.
The transfer is widescreen but nothing special.
 

lionel59

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The print employed on Australia's TCM channel of THE MASK OF DIMITRIOS looks as serviceable as many others used by Warner Archive. Possibly Zachary Scott's finest hour, though he was certainly fine in Renoir's THE SOUTHERNER and let's not forget MILDRED PIERCE.
 

ShowsOn

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I think it is sad that Fox is putting 4:3 pan and scan rubbish in their MOD program.
The really sad part is if people are willing to buy those versions, then that just means that proper anamorphic widescreen versions will be even further away.
Why can't they just get the best print of the film they have and make a new transfer of it? That would be better than pan and scan rubbish, which I wouldn't even pay $5 for let alone $20.
 

Bob Cashill

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Lou Lumenick at the NY Post on the Fox program: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/movies/dvd_extra_first_look_program_the_s4Kipu1C8mkhZtsGt9PuuM
"Before I talk about the titles (almost all of them) that I enjoyed, let's get that one problematic transfer out of the way. Henry Koster's "Fraulein'' (1958), a drama set in post-war Berlin with Dana Wynter and Mel Ferrer, is not a bad movie at all but the transfer of this project shot in DeLuxe Color -- that is, Eastmancolor processed by Fox's lab -- is excessively grainy to the point of muddiness. And it's what Fox describes as a pan-and-scan version of CinemaScope, cropping somewhere between a third and 40 percent of the original image. It looked to me more like the "full frame'' format so popular in the early days of DVD than what you'd see back in the days when this played on NBC's "Saturday's Night at the Movies,'' when telecine operators would create their own pans to keep up with the action.
"We are presenting all of these films using the best master source available, beginning with the original aspect ratio,'' says a Fox rep I asked about this. "However, sometimes the original aspect ratio master is not available, and we have to use the best aspect ratio that is available. In the case of 'Fraulein,' the best available master source was 4:3 pan & scan 1.33, and not the original aspect ratio.''
Some websites like oldies.com list "Fraulein" -- and the other two CinemaScope pictures on the initial slate, which I haven't seen, "Three Brave Men'' (and "12 Hours to Kill'' -- as full frame, but Fox says they're all scan-and-pan. "Full Frame is quite different from pan & scan,'' says the Fox rep. "When the aspect ratio is wider than 4x3, the center is "extracted" and the viewer is not able to see all of the information on the left and right sides of the screen. Essentially, the frame is stationary in FF and in the case of p&s, the telecine operator selects where to pan from left to right in order to accommodate the action onscreen. Again, we prefer to use the original aspect ratio, but due to the quality issues, we have to go with whatever master gives us the best quality.''
With the many unreleased-to-DVD CinemaScope titles that have show up in properly letterboxed on the Fox Movie Channel, it seems a curious choice to antagonize cinephiles by trying to sell pan-and-scan DVDs for $20 or so (some titles at Amazon are $18, Warners' current price point for new single releases). Hopefully Fox will heed the negative comments that have already popped up on Amazon and Home Theater Forum and forgo pan-and-scan releases until its archive program generates sufficient cash flow to pay for new OAR masters of CinemaScope titles where needed."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/movies/dvd_extra_first_look_program_the_s4Kipu1C8mkhZtsGt9PuuM#ixzz20EKQwfxf
 

Jon Hertzberg

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As usual, Lou is on top of the MOD scene...
Real head-scratching moves on the part of Fox in the year 2012. Will avoid these pan & scan titles like the plague.
Thanks for the link, Bob.
Bob Cashill said:
Lou Lumenick at the NY Post on the Fox program: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/movies/dvd_extra_first_look_program_the_s4Kipu1C8mkhZtsGt9PuuM
"Before I talk about the titles (almost all of them) that I enjoyed, let's get that one problematic transfer out of the way. Henry Koster's "Fraulein'' (1958), a drama set in post-war Berlin with Dana Wynter and Mel Ferrer, is not a bad movie at all but the transfer of this project shot in DeLuxe Color -- that is, Eastmancolor processed by Fox's lab -- is excessively grainy to the point of muddiness. And it's what Fox describes as a pan-and-scan version of CinemaScope, cropping somewhere between a third and 40 percent of the original image. It looked to me more like the "full frame'' format so popular in the early days of DVD than what you'd see back in the days when this played on NBC's "Saturday's Night at the Movies,'' when telecine operators would create their own pans to keep up with the action.
"We are presenting all of these films using the best master source available, beginning with the original aspect ratio,'' says a Fox rep I asked about this. "However, sometimes the original aspect ratio master is not available, and we have to use the best aspect ratio that is available. In the case of 'Fraulein,' the best available master source was 4:3 pan & scan 1.33, and not the original aspect ratio.''
Some websites like oldies.com list "Fraulein" -- and the other two CinemaScope pictures on the initial slate, which I haven't seen, "Three Brave Men'' (and "12 Hours to Kill'' -- as full frame, but Fox says they're all scan-and-pan. "Full Frame is quite different from pan & scan,'' says the Fox rep. "When the aspect ratio is wider than 4x3, the center is "extracted" and the viewer is not able to see all of the information on the left and right sides of the screen. Essentially, the frame is stationary in FF and in the case of p&s, the telecine operator selects where to pan from left to right in order to accommodate the action onscreen. Again, we prefer to use the original aspect ratio, but due to the quality issues, we have to go with whatever master gives us the best quality.''
With the many unreleased-to-DVD CinemaScope titles that have show up in properly letterboxed on the Fox Movie Channel, it seems a curious choice to antagonize cinephiles by trying to sell pan-and-scan DVDs for $20 or so (some titles at Amazon are $18, Warners' current price point for new single releases). Hopefully Fox will heed the negative comments that have already popped up on Amazon and Home Theater Forum and forgo pan-and-scan releases until its archive program generates sufficient cash flow to pay for new OAR masters of CinemaScope titles where needed."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/movies/dvd_extra_first_look_program_the_s4Kipu1C8mkhZtsGt9PuuM#ixzz20EKQwfxf
 

cineMANIAC

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we have to go with whatever master gives us the best quality
Note to Fox: This is a travesty. Please do us a favor and DON'T release the film if the best master you have is 4:3. You're wasting valuable resources (time and money) which can be applied to projects where the effort will bear results. The disc WON'T sell, and then you'll say you're not making any money. Most people will live without the disc until a proper release can de done. Thank you.
 

JoHud

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"We are presenting all of these films using the best master source available, beginning with the original aspect ratio,'' says a Fox rep I asked about this. "However, sometimes the original aspect ratio master is not available, and we have to use the best aspect ratio that is available. In the case of 'Fraulein,' the best available master source was 4:3 pan & scan 1.33, and not the original aspect ratio.''
The better option is to just not release it until an acceptable transfer is available, and replace the film with a different title that is currently acceptable. Or is this Fox's way of saying "This will never be remastered. Deal with it"?
 

Adam_S

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cineMANIAC said:
Note to Fox: This is a travesty. Please do us a favor and DON'T release the film if the best master you have is 4:3. You're wasting valuable resources (time and money) which can be applied to projects where the effort will bear results. The disc WON'T sell, and then you'll say you're not making any money. Most people will live without the disc until a proper release can de done. Thank you.
Agreed. Perhaps there needs to be a sustained amazon (and other etailers) campaign to rate & review all the 4:3 pan & scan, 4:3 centercut, and 4:3 letterbox titles with one star. That can be a huge aid to a boycott.

Perhaps the bits and beaver and other dvd news sites could get the word out, and the campaign could spread to all the various forums and film communities on the web to really hammer fox as HARD as possible for this egregious error. Make them hurt when they make a business decision this mistaken.

No 4:3 pan & scan, 4:3 centercut, or 4:3 letterbox transfer is "best quality" in 2012, all of these transfers are completely unacceptable and should not be released to consumers. Fox should be ashamed of themselves.
 

Danny Burk

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Agreed with the comments above. Seems like it would be a good idea to start a "Don't Buy" thread here to keep track of such titles in one place....hopefully it won't become overly long....
 

Thomas T

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Adam_S said:
No 4:3 pan & scan, 4:3 centercut, or 4:3 letterbox transfer is "best quality" in 2012, all of these transfers are completely unacceptable and should not be released to consumers.  Fox should be ashamed of themselves.
While I agree with the first two, I part ways with the third. While an anamorphic wide screen transfer is the ideal, I would have no problem with Fox releasing a MOD Fraulein in a non anamorphic wide screen transfer if that's all that was available. As opposed with the not having it at all, I'm content with the non anamorphic Violent Saturday from Twilight Time, King Of The Khyber Rifles from Spain. I look at it as a glass half full as opposed to glass half empty. P&S however makes a scope film unwatchable.
 

ShowsOn

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Thomas T said:
While I agree with the first two, I part ways with the third. While an anamorphic wide screen transfer is the ideal, I would have no problem with Fox releasing a MOD Fraulein in a non anamorphic wide screen transfer if that's all that was available. As opposed with the not having it at all, I'm content with the non anamorphic Violent Saturday from Twilight Time, King Of The Khyber Rifles from Spain. I look at it as a glass half full as opposed to glass half empty. P&S however makes a scope film unwatchable.
I agree with you that a 4:3 letterboxed transfer would be acceptable on the condition that those titles are sold for $9.95. Charging $20 for a non-anamorphic transfer is just profiteering.
 

Mark-P

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Fox has obviously fallen in with the philosophy of a few others that MOD is what you use to dump "as is" material just to make a profit. Thankfully Warner mended their ways and now use the Warner Archive to put out a quality product.
 

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