"Total HD" from Warners (re: Blu-ray/HD-DVD hybrid disc) (1 Viewer)

[Mary M S]

My fear is that HD will never make it out of a SDAC/DVD-A limbo and into mass hands sooner than a decade under current conditions. Since I think the powers that be (look at recent Bill Gates comments) are viewing HD-owned discs, - as a niche step before VOD. If they do not resolve the complications for the average consumer immediately, they will never have life-cycle to realize a return on these investments.
Hate the idea of VOD, - don’t want it over concerns it will erode quality due to compression and HD ‘lite’ while providers deal with choked BW demand....it is hard enough to get a truly stellar quality disc to purchase, - but VOD is another topic.

The jump in HD-capable display sales from 2005 to current does not reflect average consumer understanding of the immense upgrade, which HD provides - they don’t know what to do with them to get that HD experience.
I know at least 3 HD owners who don’t have one feed capable of HD resolution, (they got rid of their roof antennas years ago after living with Cable/Sat and they won’t spring for the HD compatible upgrades to get HD feeds via these providers. They are disappointed with the hoopla that is HD, for these users they can’t deal with all the sorting out, they want to bring “HD” home unpack the TV, and hit the Power button and ‘see’ it. Only vaguely understanding HD meshed with SD sources, they feel the quality has actually gone down on many of their favorite channels!

If the Studios/manuf are hoping for a return rate on all this R&D in this decade, within 2 years they need to put the easy button within reach of the masses.

A: Dual Format Players
- commodity prices on a couple of adequate players
- Higher end units for the more demanding user

B: All HD optical discs backward compatible to DVD players for a few years.

Momentum would roll like water down the hill, once the average consumer has a commodity priced unit plugged in, no issues with convoluted complicated setups for getting HD OTA or fed via a provider.

A true plug & play solution, and no worries as they start buying those HD discs, that they don’t have a HD capable player, - yet.

But I do pity the engineers trying to shoehorn Bd and HD-DVD together in Hardware, - without a nightmare of conflicts as regards compatibility issues, for ex, both copy protections aboard one unit.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Exactly. With such a combo disc I might consider hi-def DVD, because whatever the outcome of the format war, my hi-def DVD collection won't become obsolete.

The argument that everybody who might buy these discs already has a player, or that nobody will ever replace a current player are just laughable given the history of the DVD format. How many first generation DVD players had major problems, glitches and hardware issues (or technical limitations like no component output) and so were replaced within a year or two? How many users right here on this forum decided that they had to have the latest and greatest new features in a DVD player and sold or gave away their perfectly good first (or second) player to get the Next Big Thing?

If one or the other hi-def formats crashes and burns early, there aren't going to be any upgrade players for that format, and anyone who wants to get the latest features on hi-def DVD is going to need hardware that plays the other format. If the "winner" is Blu Ray and you've got lots of HD-DVDs you're screwed.

Quick show of hands - how many members of this forum own one DVD player? You probably started with one in your main home theater and then added them in other rooms as prices came down, right? What do you think the pattern (which will play out over the next several years) is going to be like for both HDTV itself and hi-def DVD.

The people buying their first HDTVs now will be adding them to the bedroom and the kids' rooms and the den in the coming years. Again, with the current format war, this presents them with a dillemma. When the time comes to buy the then-cheap hi-def DVD players that will go in those rooms, will my format still exists? Even if my HD-DVD player still works, I won't be able to watch my movies on the BD players that I had to buy for the rest of the house because HD-DVD went belly-up.

Also, it makes it easier for folks to share discs. If I want to lend the really cool hi-def movie I just bought with my nephew, we have a problem if I'm HD-DVD and he's BD. With a combo disc we don't have to worry about it. How is this "more confusing"? I buy one dsc, I don't have to worry or think about the player. I can buy a disc as a gift and not have to check to see what kind of player the person has. Sounds good to me.

Of course it will all depend on the actual specs, the prices, the prices of the LG combo players, etc., but I still fail to see how any of this is "bad". (Unless, again, you are simply irrationally invested in the "victory" of one format or the other.)

Both the Warner Hybrid discs and the LG combo players will have the effect of reassuring consumers that they can get into hi-def DVD without the risk that they're going to end up in a technological dead-end. The Warner discs in particular offer "collection insurance", which could have some interesting effects.

BTW, I wouldn't be so quick to declare this "the death knell of HD-DVD". As player prices come down across the board, and the Total DVD disc prices (wherever they start) inevitably follow as economies of scale kick in, people looking to get into hi-def DVD without breaking the bank may increasing choose HD-DVD as their entry-level players, ignoring the (always) pricier Sony alternatives. As long as their discs can be played on Blu Ray players if their subsequent or additional players are BD, as well as still playing on their HD-DVD players, why not?

Remember the history of VHS and Beta - what killed Beta were low-priced VHS decks that player longer tapes and video rental stores. When videotape moved beyond the twin niches of home movie enthusiasts (the videotape recorder was developed and marketed as a replacement for the 8mm and Super8 camera, projector, and screen, not as a device for watching movies) and movie geeks into mainstream homes, it did so in the form of VHS. When video rentals got big they originally stock movie in both Beta and VHS (Beta movies often being on two cassettes) but as VHS gained more ground, demand for VHS tapes went up and proportionally less shelf was devoted to Beta. What followed was a circular process. More VHS players meant more VHS rentals, which meant first that Beta rentals were harder to find and later that studios stopped releasing movies on Beta, which in turn led to more sales of VHS decks even to early adopters who had gone with Beta, because that was their only choice if they wanted to watch (and later buy) movies on tape to watch at home.

Now imagine if Beta and VHS tapes had been in the same physical form factor, but were somehow encoded differently. If a studio came out with a tape that would play in either kind of machine, that would have solved the inventory problem for the rental store and later the retailer. And a shift to "hybrid tape" would have had the same effect on studios releasing only on Beta that a straight switch to DVD did. If you wanted to be on the disc that was selling, you would have to be on either VHS or "hybrid". No studio is going to remain "exclusive" to a format that it sees becoming marginalized.

The Warner Disc may be the only chance that the format that moves the fewest players as both expand into the marketplace has to survive. Someone please explain to me why this would be a "disaster"?

Regards,

Joe

 

[ScottHM]

No, I'm not ignoring your opinion, I just don't think this dual format disc is the disaster you imply.

I don't think 'confusion' is the biggest problem the hi-def formats have at the moment anyway. It's the high price of upgrading TVs and disc players, and the 50% premium on disc prices compared to DVD. If the format war had never existed, this alone would be holding most people back for a while.

---------------

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

SACD/DVD-A failed because they were a solution without a problem. This is the same reason DIVX ultimately failed. One of these days technology types are going to realize "if you build it, they will come" is something that only works in the movies (and then only in fantasy films.) Just because technology allows you to build a "better" multichannel audio format doesn't mean that anybody is going to buy it - especially when people are happy with CD quality sound, car stereo quality and MP3 players listen to through. Some form of hi-def DVD is going to succeed because HDTV is succeeding and people want content to go with their cool new HD sets. Movie downloads aren't going to become truly mainstream until serious broadband is cheap and ubiquitous - and we aren't close to being their yet.

(Again, I think the fact that the members here tend to be tech savvy and early adopters can skew our impression of what's "normal". A lot of stuff that we take for granted is still a novelty to an awful lot of people. I personally own four HDTVs, one LCoS set in the living room, 3 LCD flat panels - a 27" in the master bedroom and two - 26" and 32" -that will go in the home office and be used as both TVs and computer monitors and for video editing. I also have four computers on a home network. I live alone in a 2 bedroom condo. I am not a typical consumer.)

But note, I don't own a hi-def DVD player.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jesse Skeen]

None of the major studios supported one tape format over the other- they all released titles in both VHS and Beta. Not sure if every single title was released on both formats though- in most places the rental stores had more titles on VHS.

 

[Mary M S]

I see your point, and because I personally felt SACD/DVD-A were staying ‘niche’ I was content to acquire the ability for one or the other, (I ended up with DVD-A) but was not going to put out for a separate dual-capable unit.

HD’s difference is that higher resolution, is here to stay, people of all walks once experiencing want it in the same manner in which they gravitated from VHS>DVD. The default replacement display sold is capable of it, and they will slowly begin to make use of that capability. Anyone can see the improvement, and are exposed to it more each year at sports bars & friends homes. Scott, I agree that pricing is key to a avalanche of adoption, seems back when each home was stacked full of VHS disc's finally rocketed in sales when the players hit that magic $200 target.

Joe, I really like your thoughts on the subject.
I try to think ‘back’ to before I was aware of early adoption opportunities paying attention to a more general point of view by noticing what I see in homes around me. Many are so confused by the process of setting up a new HD display to receive ‘any’ HD, (OTA & tuners) that adding levels of complexity (two) HD disc formats, is the slow road to the goal (profits) for the providers, on rentals and sales. The displays are still not plug & play and have too many setup complications. I can't count the number of times I do see a homeowner with one HD feed (say primetime OTA) who does not realize someone has rotated the remote's resolution into 480.
Too expensive (and confusing) they give up and live with how it looks.

Those who will not spring to add HD packages to already high monthly bills, and those who won’t go back to installing and tweaking roof antennas, are a prime target for a single player or single disc solution. Once owning a player they will weekend impulse purchase discs, like hotcakes.
That they can figure out, buy a disc, hit play and finally feel satisfaction over that new display.

..it’s going to be a long road isn’t it

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Indeed it is.

 

[Chris S]

Some very interesting details tonight from the Warner press event. This comes from Engadget.com's online blog of the event. Link

Note: this is likely not all the details as the even it still going on.

Edit: All emphasis is mine

 

[Chris S]

And here is the last part and again emphasis is mine. (Note: LOTR is mentioned!)

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Interesting stuff. If these dual format discs work and don't cost a fortune, they'll guarantee that both formats will have some viability for some time. Thanks for the posts, Chris.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Again, not until quite late in the process. And you're confusing cause and effect. "[T]he rental stores had more titles on VHS" in "most places" because VHS was in the process of winning the format war.

Rental stores were stocking more VHS tapes because there was more demand for VHS. There was more demand for VHS because there were more VHS machines being sold. And the process fed on itself.

If I were a guy looking to buy his first VCR around 1981 or so I'd go down to the local video store to find out about this stuff. If I saw lots of shelf space given over to VHS and multiple copies of all the new releases in VHS while Beta got less space and only one or two copies, I'd be inclined to buy a VHS machine because it would be easier to get stuff to play in it.

In a format war once one of the formats achieves that critical mass, the other seemingly vanishes overnight. This is also true of formats which supercede earlier formats. CDs were something you read about in newspapers and that a few rich guys had and then Wham! vinyl virtually dissapeared from every retail store in North America, seemingly in the course of a weekend. Suddenly you could buy tapes and CDs, but no LPs in most mainstream reatils outlets. DVD started as an end-cap, then half and aisle, then a full aisle in my local Best Buy, and then about 6 months later I was wandering through the video section and realized that there were no VHS tapes being sold.

Now the interesting thing about Warner's TotalHD, especially given the specs announced at CES, is that it threatens to short-circuit the normal process. Whoever said the fundamental similarity of SD-DVD, HD-DVD and Blu Ray could be the salvation of all three was on to something. Normally there are only two rational outcomes in this kind of "next generation extention of home video" - the DVD model, where the industry compromised and agreed to back a single format, or a winner-take-all format war. TotalHD, even more than the LG player, offers a third alternative. Studios, retailers and rental houses can ignore the whole issue and release what is a single format in all but name (saving on shipping, warehousing and inventory costs) while consumers and buy whichever hardware they prefer without having to track down the "right" disc for it.

Who cares if we're "supporting" DRM? Who cares if the disc carries the "inferior" format as long as we get what we want. I'm not sure the exclusive studios are going to be able to hold out very long if that means missing out on 50% of sales in a hi-def DVD market evenly divided between HD-DVD and BD players. (And given the price difference and the non-impact of the still-hard-to-find PS3, it is more likely to be a 60/40 or even 70/30 world.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Tim Glover]

LOTR in HD! Yes. I'm in

 

[BrettGallman]

Well, it's good to know that these things won't compromise the quality for either format, at least in a capacity sense.

As long as I can get titles at around the same price as the DVD/HD-DVD combos now, I won't be too unhappy. I still won't like paying for a worthless side to a disc though.

And it's good just to hear the words "Lord of the Rings" and "High Definition" in the same sentence. I hope we see it by the end of the year, which will be earlier than I ever expected. This is a NLC release though, and they haven't said anything regarding HD or BD, which makes me wonder why this is such a realistic possibility. I think New Line may be making some announcements soon if all this LOTR talk is true.

Which brings me to my final point: I may finally see a benefit for these discs now. Perhaps this will spur studios like New Line to get involved in the new formats. That's just speculation on my part, though.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

So these are flippers. I suspected as much; makes it easier to go dual layer for both sides. I'm waiting to see the patent for the triple combo disc (DVD/BD/HD DVD), if Warner ever gets the glitches worked out.

I'm thinking they'll call it the TotalDisc.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Well, no. These are two-sided discs. A flipper, properly speaking, is a disc that has part of the movie on one side and the rest on the other side. That is, one that has to be flipped to be watched. This is just a disc that has stuff on side 2 that you have no interest in. (Rather like the early Warner Bros. discs that had the P&S version on one side and the original apsect ratio on the other. )

Regards,

Joe

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Good point about the disctintion between "flipper" and "two sided discs". Noted.

However, even 2-sided discs annoy me bcs there's no safe side to rest the disc without scratching, and you have to turn the lights on and get out a magnifying glass to figure out which side to face up/down to insert in the tray. Grrr!

 

[Tim Glover]

Do agree about the 2 sided discs in regards to prints etc...My HD-DVD combo of Superman Returns gets kind of smudgey.

I hope the Total HD thing takes off....this could help studios go both ways.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Actually there was a DVD format war for about a year and a half. Anyone remember Divx? Also interesting to note that Divx had the support of the vast majority of Studios. Studio support is not everything in a format war.

Doug

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Aren't BD discs supposed to be hard coated to prevent scratches? I thought that was one of the innovations brought about in the format when they got rid of the "caddies".

 

[DaViD Boulet]

substitute "fingerprints" for "scratches" if that helps...

Yeah, they're hardcoated. But that only gets them to a little-better-than-DVD in scratch-proofing, it's not a miracle no-scrach coating.