Thread from the Axiom forums, "Hsu STF-2, Hsu VTF-3, and SVS PB1+" (1 Viewer)

[Craig Chase]

Scott - Why don't you tell me which post I misread or misinterpreted ?

Paul - It is clear you are going to be all Hsu, all the time. That is fine. You are also going to use small quotes of mine and someone like Mark Seaton (who knows a LOT about the laws of physics) from our posts to try to prove a point.

You make comments like "maze" and "you must have a lot of spare time" ... I have put a lot of work/fun into my reviews, and am tired of guys like you making acidic comments about them.

This all adds up to the type of guy I would rather not associate with.

I would also appreciate you not quoting me in the future. I do not like being taken out of context.

 

[CraigRogers]

Dang Craig you've gotten a whole lot crankier since I first started following your sub reviews. Phew!

For anyone to NOT think reading the sub thread(s) over on the spot is a maze would surprise me. Don't get me wrong, it's a great thread, and you've done a TON of great work, but dang...some of those threads are pages, and pages, and pages long. You've got to do a LOT of reading to get the meat of the story. Plus (no fault of yours) just finding the thread is quite a maze.

Perhaps the flames of sub threads is getting to you, but to be honest in this thread, you just seem way off base, and not the usual happy-go-lucky Craig I've enjoyed reading posts from.

 

[paul clipsel]

Craig I am sorry but I don't understand how you have this all jumbled up. You seem to have read things totally wrong. It sounds like you think I am picking on you; but I can tell you that I am not. I have said absolutely nothing negative to you, or about you.(the jungle carpet thing was light hearted dig at the old two inch thick shag-pile) I only seek tips and info on HT. Asking people with experience like youself is the way I can find things out.
My comments about maze are to do with the Home Theater Spots "web site", which has that many sections and links that I got lost and felt like I was in a maze. When I finally found your long review and all the pages I was too frustrated in the search to read it properly, so I bookmarked it and will read it in detail later today.

My comment about spare time was complementary as it looked like your review has got a lot of info that must have taken you a while to do. I don't type that fast so what takes someone an hour to type takes me 3 or 4. I was expressing envy for the effort and length (not sure how thats a negative)

I am now wondering how I got in such deep trouble in this thread without even trying.


PC

 

[ScottCHI]

go back and read his posts and your replies. somewhere you decided this guy was attacking you and i don't think he ever was. in fact, he seems to be agreeing with you, most of the time.

i think you're being (understandably) defensive.

 

[Craig Chase]

Craig, you mention my grumpiness, I am not sure where to even start. Paul, You are jumping from thread to thread, and are using snippets of what people say to prove what you want to believe. I told Curtis that Eq would be easier to use in his room than a large room, because it is. An 18 by 14 foot room will not have that many places to worry about, vs. a 900 square foot room with 30 seats.

Mark Seaton's discussion on Eq was not what you decided it was. You want to use it to decide your "raw" power in your VTF-3 does not need an Eq. What he said was you had to use care to make sure the job you do in eqing your system works well in all listening positions. In my system, every listening position has a +/- 3 dB response from 16 to 80 Hz from the sub.... and +/- 4 dB to 16,384 Hz for everything.

I have owned VTF-3 Mark II's for 5 months now.... and have done more testing and measuring than anyone except possibly Dr. Hsu. Paul, I see you edited out your carpeting response. The problem that has surfaced is not what you had assumed. The problem is a thick carpet over concrete affactes the loading of the driver, and causes a wildly fluctuating FR in the VTF-3 in a down firing position. If I was the biased SVS shill that a lot of Hsu fans have accused me of being, I would never have mentioned this. Istead, I e-mailed the raw data to Dr. Hsu, and you will likely see some solutions from him regarding the problem.

Perhaps you meant nothing by the wise crack, but I have tolerated enough abuse from Hsu owners that I have started to develop a zero tolerance policy. Do SVS owners get annoying about the "OMG, my walls are falling down !!!" posts? Yes.

But you do not see SVS owners calling me a paid shill, biased, kickback taker... etc... that I have had from Hsu fans. The ironic thing, I have never talked to Tom Vodhanel other than e-mail, yet HAVE talked to Dr. Hsu. He is one of the most likeable men you will ever meet.

Paul, I also noticed you did not even comment on my $1000 challenge. I HAVE done the blind tests... and know what the outcome will be. and IF you did listen to the VTF-3 against the PB1 ... in the same room, and referred one over the other in blind testing... then, for you, I will up the ante, bring your $5000 against mine.

And note, I am not saying the SVS will be superior, I am saying you won't be able to tell the difference, on music, with both systems set up properly.

Finally - Where do I get the "All Hsu, all the time" , in this thread, you claim to not know what the PB2+ can do, then when a guy on another thread asks about whether a PB2+ or TWO VTF-3/2's for his room, I mentioned my review, and said both are great choices. YOU dismissed the SVS completely. And as for the "maze", I posted a link to the HTS homepage, and from there it was 3 easy clicks to a summary of the first sub shootout. Enough said.

 

[JackRI]

Craig, a lot of us have carpet over a wooden sub floor, which is on joists (Is that the correct term? You know. Those vertical wooden 2x10 boards on which the floor rests), which is over an open crawl space or basement. As you know I have a down firing HSU STF-2. Can any judgments be made about that situation, based on what you've found with the carpet over concrete?

 

[Craig Chase]

I have tried the Hsu on our hardwood floors... with both padded carpet underneath and with area rugs... no problem.

I am going to try the VTF-3 (down firing) again with some feet under the spikes, in our basement... and see what happens...

 

[Craig Chase]

Here are three frequency responses...

1. B4+ http://www.robbroy.net/Craig/b4sweep20hz.JPG

2. VTF-3/2 in down firing position with rubber feet used to keep carpet from interfering with driver.

http://www.robbroy.net/Craig/hsudowntake2.JPG

3. VTF-3/2 in front firing position :

http://www.robbroy.net/Craig/hsufrontfiretake2.JPG

All three subwoofers were place where the manufacturer suggests. In the case of the VTF-3, it was directly behind the couch....

Based on the Frequency Responses, which is the superior set up?

 

[Craig Chase]

Since noone answered the question, a hint... the B4+ was Eq'ed...

 

[CurtisSC]

They all look pretty good....but the EQ'd B4+ definitely looks best.

How much more clearance did the rubber feet give to the VTF-3MK2?

 

[JackRI]

Man, that B4 goes DEEP! don't it?

 

[CraigRogers]

What's the "Input Level SPL" figure in the top left mean? Just curious how this works.

Thanks.

 

[Craig Chase]

It was about an extra inch... and does make a lot of difference... In most rooms, the down firing will work as well as front firing. I did recommend to Dr. Hsu that rather than all the extra $$$$ of making the VTF-3 "convertable" ... just offer "longer feet" as an accessory on the Web site, for people with deep carpet/padding like we have in the basement.

I e-mailed all three to Dr. Hsu, and tonight will re-run the sweeps from the listening position. From this it is pretty easy to see what small changes in a subwoofer's location will do to its response. Here, the only change in the VTF-3 was the Down Vs. Front firing position. These sweeps were taken one meter from the ports for the down firing (thus the stronger below 30 Hz measurements) and one meter from the Driver in the front firing position.

The B4+ sweeps were put here because I wanted to illustrate:

1. That Eqing in room makes a HUGE difference...

2. To assure everyone that the measuring equipment is accurate...

 

[Craig Chase]

Craig - that is the total SPL's the TrueRTA is reading. When I ran the B4+ sweep, it was actually reading in the mid 90's ... so ignore the 56 dB figure there... The graphs are set in "peak hold", and I stopped the test on the B4+ before clicking stop on the TrueRTA ... With the Hsu, I stopped the TrueRTA before stopping the test...

 

[CraigRogers]

gotcha.

Thanks.

 

[CurtisSC]

Do you have a sweep of the B4 before EQing?

 

[Craig Chase]

No... mostly because I was too involved with the Behringer 2496 and the TrueRTA to think about it. I do know it took 4 bands to get this response... 5 dB boost at 20 Hz, 3 dB cut at 24, 4 dB boost at 42, and a 7 dB cut at 62 Hz... all with varying widths... So nothing too drastic, especially considering there is no internal EQ in the system.

Both Hsu and SVS use EQ curves in their powered subwoofers. As does Onix... and most other "high end" subwoofers. This makes sense, because they know the response curve of the drivers in an anechoic setting, so matching the EQ within the amp is pretty simple.

Paul Clipsel... If I mis-read your thinking, plase accept my apologies... and consider yourself welcome into the discussions... ok ?

 

[CurtisSC]

That Behringer seems like a lot of toy.

 

[paul clipsel]

Craig sorry this is a long winded post but I would like it to be clear.


So I missed a turn or two because I relied on my memory rather than having this thread open in another window. I still found it horrid and quite confusing with too many sections. I much prefer this forums clean setup. Sure if you have been there as often as you I am sure it’s easy. Its not the first time I was lost on a (new to me) web site.

PC

 

[Craig Chase]

Paul - What Mark Seaton said was to check the Eq in several locations, because if you EQ with only one location in mind, you can run into problems. Put another way, every installation he does is extensively eq'ed... and done properly. I also never said it ONLY affects larger rooms, I said larger rooms are what Mark usually deals with, and that smaller rooms are much simpler to Eq.

Look at it this way, It would take about 16 VTF-3's co-located to equal two B-deaps... or two Contra Bass... picture Equing THAT ... not the easiest job...

Regarding the PB2+, immediately after I posted thoughts about BOTH units, ALL you mentioned was the VTF-3 ... I have consistently stated that people should answer the post. The gent asked whether the PB2+ OR the VTF-3 was a better choice. YOU stated he should buy one VTF-3 ... which means you dismissed the PB2+ while knowing nothing about it.

And yes, I DID bring up the EQ idea.. because it works. I have run about 60 sweeps regarding the subject... in fact, there are two "un-eq'ed" sweeps of the VTF-3 Mark II (remember, I do own the same subwoofer you do)... look at the charts, and tell us if you think the response could be improved.