Thread from the Axiom forums, "Hsu STF-2, Hsu VTF-3, and SVS PB1+" (1 Viewer)

[Tony Genovese]

Shiu:

I'm lost. If the RTi38 goes down to 50, why can't you set the crossover to 80 and be done with it? What am I missing?

 

[Shiu]

Craig, it took me "a couple of hours" X 3 or 4......I lost count! I had to adjust not only the freq, but also the level, phase, and that bandwidth thing call "Q" I think. And then, I had to move the speaker around so many times, in order to find the optimal position. There are so many combinations/permutations, it was definitely hard work.

I know I really don't have enough knowledge and experience to talk about the SVS's on board PEQ, but I can say that I am really happy that I went with the PC Ultra because of this thing. Without it, my music listening would have been much less enjoyable, due to "room gain" between 18 and 40 Hz. I am talking about 10 dB difference between the low and top end of the SVS's response. Thanks to the PEQ, it is now within 3 dB, between 30 & 75 Hz anyway. Between 18 & 25, it is still 1.5 to 4 dB higher but if I remember correctly, my friend at club Polk said bass below 30 Hz are "free bass", so I am not complaining.

 

[Shiu]

Tony, I did set the XO for the RTi38 to 80 and that's fine for 2-channel stuff. My only problem is, the L/R surrounds and the back L/R surrounds are all RM2350 that are part of the satellite speakers that made up the RM6700 system. Their -3 dB limit is at 130 Hz. Polk Audio recommends setting the XO for the sub up 160 Hz in order to reproduce the bass for the satellites. My old PSW404 can do 160 Hz no problem but the SVS struggles with anything above 75 Hz (in my room). It is really not too big a deal assuming most movies don't allocate much bass to the surround channels (just an assumption, or wishful thinking on my part), it may be more psychological than anything else but it still bothers me a little. I thought it is a good excuse for me to buy another pair of bookshelf, or floor standing speakers this time.

 

[Craig Chase]

Shiu... I have a much better picture now. The SVS is designed to be an 80 Hz and down subwoofer... to work as high as you need (in frequency), you would almost have to remove the bass plate, and put the driver facing you, next to one of your Polks... not the easiest thing to do with a 3.5 foot long cylinder...

 

[Shiu]

You got it Craig, I know the SVS is doing what it is suppose to do and is doing it very well. I am going to start a new thread now and ask for help for picking out a pair of floor standing speakers.

 

[Craig Chase]

Shiu... With your location, take a hard look at Axiom... the M-60's are a killer design... bass to 50 Hz and below, and easy to drive... and they are a bargain

 

[Stephen Houdek]

I find it egregious that one of the HSU fanboys doesn't even have the cajones to post his mini review on this site. Indeed he can't even post it himself, he has one of his bud's do it on another forum.

How is this test unbiased? We all know you're an HSU fan. Why didn't you follow the manual on the PB1+ when setting it up? The manual clearly explains how to use the PEQ.

You could have called SVS to get a recommendation on how best to set up the sub. Did you use it on carpet or on a bare floor? Ron and Tom are experts in subwoofers and you don't even bother to give them an opportunity to ensure they get a fair shake? Where are your measurements? How did you measure and what equipment did you use?

The emperor has no clothes!! This is just too funny!

 

[Craig Chase]

Stephen, While I understand your frustration that Hsu "fans" have one standard for testing Hsu subs, and another for every other sub, please don't hold this against Dr. Hsu, or his company. In my conversations with Dr. Hsu, I have learned he does extensive research, a lot of blind listening tests, and I also find him to be a pleasure to chat with.

What is ironic (at least to me) is that the two companies actually add credibility to each other. Hsu and SVS, along with Axiom, Rocket, Ascend, ACI (for over 25 years) and others have made "factory direct" a very plausible alternative to the Brick and Mortar model.

When I see some of the bitterness between fans of both companies, I find it dismaying.

Here is a quiz... just for fun:

1. Who pioneered the concept of 4th and 6th order bandpass speaker designs ? (hint, not Bose, theirs is a bandpass box).

2. What company had a very early commercial use of a 6th order design, and in what product?

3. Who first popularized cylinder subwoofers?

4. Who had one of the first factory direct, high value, high output subwoofers complete with a 30 day in-home trial?

 

[CurtisSC]

Stephen,

If you read the whole thread or looked at the pictures, everything is clearly explained on what was done and why.

I also understand your bitterness and your feelings that your sub company did not get a fair shake, I can assure you that I have no bitterness towards SVS, which is why I recommended them to my Parents for their livingroom.

While Craig and I had a good exchange on this thread, I clearly understand where he is coming from as well, and what he has said about me not using the EQ is very fair.

Craig, for the quiz, the only answers I know for sure are 3 and 4. edit: I am actually wondering about #4 now.

 

[Craig Chase]

Curtis, I can assure you that, while we both know you have a strong affection for Hsu, you are not a flamer nor troll... no problems there....

and post you answers, ok? ... this is for fun...

 

[Robb Roy]

I don’t think anybody needs to beat up on Curtis. What he did was a very informal comparison, that’s all. Was it biased? Sure (without blind testing, there’s no way it could be unbiased). Did the Hsu have the advantage due to a number of factors (no EQ used on the PB1+, input from Hsu on his sub, lots of experience/familiarity with Hsu…)? Yes. I don’t think Curtis has claimed the test was perfectly fair, or that it was not at least potentially subject to bias. For all the complaints I see about SVS fanaticism, I think Hsu fans can be even worse. Curtis, however, has always been honest about his preferences, and reasonable in his debate.

-Robb

 

[CurtisSC]

Thanks Robb.

Craig...my guesses:

for #1 and #2...I think you and discussed this a long time ago, but I forget what the answers were.

For #3....Hsu.

#4, I was going to say Hsu, but, I think ACI sold subs before Hsu...not sure though.

 

[Craig Chase]

Curtis has weighed in with answers... anyone else ?

 

[CurtisSC]

Wait a second....#3 could be kind of tricky, one could argue that DIYers made it popular.

 

[Craig Chase]

Answers:

1. Dr.s Theile/Small ... first published in the 1960's

2. Electro-Voice with their Interface series in the mid 1970's. In fact, in the Interface D, not only were they a 6th order bandpass (ported design with the ports working over a small range just below driver resonance and the Eq adding an additional 12 dB per octave slope to the 4th order, 24 dB per octave slope), you could block a port and extend the bass from 28 to 24 Hz... which was remarkable at the time.

3. Bazooka, in 1984.

4. VMPS, they had a subwoofer for $300 in 1979... a 12 inch driver, and down firing 15 inch mass loaded PR ...

Note... There may be earlier examples... and if there is, great... I did this to illustrate that most of the tech stuff with speakers has been around a long time.

 

[Robb Roy]

Criag,

You needed to give me another minute -- I had 3 of them (I was way off on number 4)!

-Robb

 

[Craig Chase]

Robb - You actually got the Electro-voice one ? I am impressed.

The Interface D's were a fantastic speaker... way ahead of their time.

Curtis - I would not slip a DIY project in there...

 

[Robb Roy]

Craig,

I only got it because it was you (if I recall) that mentioned it once and it stuck in my mind.

-Robb

 

[CurtisSC]

Was VMPS factory direct back then?

 

[Craig Chase]

Yes, VMPS was factory direct... and actually would set up small distributors... I was one from 79 to 82... I sold a lot of their 12 inch 3 ways (well, maybe ten pairs..)... they killed the JBL 100's for 1/2 the price...