The Outlaw 950 - Confessions of a Beta Tester (1 Viewer)

[AntonS]

Is there ANYONE here on the forum who would like to convince me to reconsider the Denon 5803?

I was waiting for 5803, but after considering their $4300 MSRP and no warranty when buying online (i.e. not paying MSRP), I've changed my mind. No more Denons for me until they change their warranty policy.

Another point is that the steep price you are going to pay for 5803 is hardly justified. Most of it goes not directly to sound quality, but rather to paying THX certification fees. The fancy but hardly usable Atkis remote also adds quite a bit to the price. Also, they sneakily dropped all wordings from their 5803 ads about the unit's future upgradeability, so I'm assuming they are not going to upgrade 5803 in the future.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Another point is that the steep price you are going to pay for 5803 is hardly justified. Most of it goes not directly to sound quality, but rather to paying THX certification fees.

Most of it? Are you high? This is hogwash - please post a reference.

 

[Legairre]

Another point is that the steep price you are going to pay for 5803 is hardly justified. Most of it goes not directly to sound quality, but rather to paying THX certification fees.

Based on a conversation I had with Rotel once. They said their $2000 RSP-985(THX certified) pre/pro would be $400-$500 cheaper if not for the THX certification. From what I know THX certification isn't a pecentage of the units cost. I find it hard to believe that most of the 5803's cost is in the THX certification. I really doubt that $2000-$3000 of the 5803's cost is THX certification. If that was the case it would be just a little better than my $1000 Denon 3300 receiver.

 

[Alex Yang]

Thanks for the replies... Does anyone know if the 950 will be able to perform the VIDEO pass through to Component (ie, Denon 5803)?
Thanks,
-Alex
I'm still going to purchase the 950 instead of the 5803 but video passthrough would be some really REALLY sweet icing on the cake!!!

 

[Jim Prillaman]

The 950 can pass composite to S-Video and S-Video to composite, but can not pass composite / S-Video to component.

 

[Will]

Is there ANYONE here on the forum who would like to convince me to reconsider the Denon 5803?

There are many HTF people who are Denon receiver believers, but I'm not sure if you'll find too many who would wade through all the pages of this particular thread, so you may want to post your question in another, more Denon-intense thread where there might be more Denon receiver believers lurking.

 

[Lin Park]

RAF,

Not to be the nay sayer here, but now that you have heard that particular passage on your Jacintha SACD, have you gone back and listened to it again using the Denon 5700 as the pre/pro? Several times I have found that when you get a new piece of equipment, you listen a little harder and find things that were really there all along. Knowing that it took 5 hours to hook everything up though, I'll understand if you don't do this regression test.

Also, thanks for the glowing review. I have a feeling one of the 950's will be finding it's way to my doorstep in the near future.

Cheers,

Lin

 

[Alex Yang]

Jim,

Thanks for the info on the video switching!

-Alex

BTW, I was wondering where you found this out from?

 

[Bob-N]

Alex,

If I recall, it was in the February newsletter or one of the beta testers review that stated this conversion. You might want to check the newsletter first as it's easier than wading though the tester's reviews.

Bob

 

[Jim Prillaman]

Alex
I have seen the video switching information in a couple places. I most recently had it confirmed in a beta tester's comments at Outlaw's forum, but I've also seen it in the new newsletter and I think some previous newsletters and maybe a press release at some point.

 

[AntonS]

Most of it? Are you high? This is hogwash - please post a reference.

Well, I did not really mean "most", rather "some". Wrong word choice, sorry. It's hard to know real numbers, but let's play a guessing game. 5803 has lots of new THX certifications, more than ever before. Lots of fees to pay. How much are the fees? $100K, $500K, $1M, $10M? No idea But I still think that the unit would cost $500-$1000 less without certification tags.
Atkis remote - how much do you think they charge for it? Fancy, with LCD... no matter that is's hardly usable. My guess - about $500-$700 or even more.
So what's the real cost of electronics you are buying? If assuming the dealer cost of about $2500, then you are paying $4300 for about $1500 piece of sound-producing hardware.
What's the Outlaw combo deal? $900 + $1100 or even better? It's one bad ass 7ch amp with seemingly top notch pre/pro. Something makes me feel you are getting a lot more for your money here.
Btw don't get me wrong, I'm estimating (guessing) the numbers. If you think I'm wrong at some of them (and I may), just tell me.

 

[Brian Corr]

I'm a big Denon fan.

I own the 5700 and sell part time for an authorized dealer of Denon. (By the way, I bought my Denon long before I started selling them based on comments and research on this forum).

I can also buy product for myself at dealer cost.

That said, I am considering the Outlaw 950 as the replacement for my 5700 rather than a 5803.

The 5803 will do some things better than the 950 and will have more inputs/outputs and bells and whistles.

For some, it will fit the bill better than separates.

For me, I want to take my system up a notch and I feel that the 950 and a separate amp will surpass the sound of a 5803 or the like.

I've yet to hear, read or experience a receiver that sounded better than when an external amp was hooked up using the reciever as a pre/pro. I've tried it on my own system with an amp that was rated less than my 5700. The difference was dramatic. (I'd say easily a 30-40% improvement). It may not be true in all cases all the time, but I think a decent amp will sound better than the amps in a receiver.

That leaves the processing part.

The next consideration would be if using the 5803 as a pre/pro would sound better than the 950. Personally, I wouldn't expect there to be a drastic difference.

The 950 just looks to be that good at this point!

I think the time is coming where the low end of separates will surpass the high end receivers in terms of sound quality. They won't have all the features but as long as they do the basics, and do them well, they have an attractive product.

If the outlaw turns out to be that good, I can't see spending even $2500 on a receiver.

Just my .02

 

[Legairre]

Anton,

It wouldn't surprise me if $1000 of the 5803 was certifications. When my Denon 3300 was new it sold for $999. A place called costsheets.com use to tell dealer cost. I remember going there and the 3300's dealer cost was somthing like $600. So it probably cost Denon $400-$500 to make it and sell it to dealers. Like your I'm guessing here. So you numbers on the 5803 might be right.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Well, I did not really mean "most", rather "some". Wrong word choice, sorry.

Hee hee hee. That's better.

 

[John Morris]

Is 6 speakers (6.1, with single center surround) an option, or is it only 5 (5.1) or 7 (7.1)?

Yes, during the speaker config setup, you can select either NONE, One or Two center rear surround speakers.

 

[Will]

Now-a-days, no company operates in a vacuum and almost everyone talks to each other so it is not too hard to find out what AT is doing by talking to Outlaw, or vice versa

Did the Outlaws say anything to any of the beta testers about the Atlantic Technology pre/pro or Sherbourn pre/pro both of which appear to be either exactly the same, or almost exactly the same, on the inside as the Model 950?

 

[Ricky T]

"- pseudo analog test

My Sony DVP-S7700 DVD player has both analog and digital (coaxial) outputs. I connected both to the 950 for testing. I told the 950 that DVD input was on Coaxial 1, and that CD input was Analog. Then I used the remote to switch back and forth. Neither my wife nor I could hear any difference between these."

The 4th beta tester wrote the above on the outlaw forum (tester is not a HTForum member, and I think Will cut and pasted here). He and his wife can't tell a difference between the Outlaw dacs and the Sony 7700 dacs (on the fly). Could it be that most dacs (ie, outlaw, sony 7700, rp91, ref30) are so close that is comes down to your ears (and very hard to decifer in a blind test)?

 

[John Morris]

Now-a-days, no company operates in a vacuum and almost everyone talks to each other so it is not too hard to find out what AT is doing by talking to Outlaw, or vice versa. (j/k!)

Will: I can't tell if you are trying to be a troublemaker, or are just careless when you quote me sometimes? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just missed copying my statement in full. My full statement is copied above for your info. Of course, including the "j/k(just kidding)" and the sh*t eating grin icon makes it very clear that I was sarcastically kidding when I wrote that statement. Still, to answer your question, as far as I'm concerned, no conversation ever took place about any other gear that did not carry the Outlaw label except for the HTM remotes and Cirrus DSPs and DACs.

 

[Legairre]

Did the Outlaws say anything to any of the beta testers about the Atlantic Technology pre/pro or Sherbourn pre/pro both of which appear to be either exactly the same, or almost exactly the same, on the inside as the Model 950?

On Monday I emailed Ron at Sherbourn and asked if his pre/pro was the same unit as the AT/Outlaw's. He was brief, but VERY honest about the Sherbourn pre/pro and it's development. I don't want to post the email here out of respect for him and his company. I just don't think it would be right to post his reply on the net. If someone is really interested in his comments please email me. He never asked me to keep his comments to myself so I don't feel I'll be doing anything wrong by filling you in.

 

[Will]

Since the Outlaws have released the beta testers from the NDM and after reading the comment, above, I was curious if there was some new information the beta testers might know about the relationship between the Outlaws and either Sherbourn or Atlantic Tech, that might not have been previously known. I was wistfully hoping that there was more info available.
Legairre: Thanks for the confirmation. Did the Sherbourn rep say their pre/pro was identical to the 950 on the inside, or only similar?
John: sorry about not cut-n-pasting the sh*t eatin grin. ->