The day I got scared almost to death (1 Viewer)

[Julie K]

Bill,
Glad you liked Whisperer in the Darkness

I don't close my mind to scientific discovery, but I find it funny that once one theory is stated everybody signs off as that being the answer. Why can't some skeptics accept the fact that perhaps there is such thing as ghosts

Because there is simply no scientific evidence that the dead return as spirits. There is also no reason to believe that the dead can return in any of our current accepted scientific models. (People are, of course, able to follow various spiritual models)
Let me make just one example about how science changes as new observations are made:
Keplerian models of orbital mechanics do a great job in describing the motions of the planets, except there was a small descrepancy between the predicted rate (from Keplerian theory) of the precession of Mercury's orbit and the observed rate. After confirming the observations correct, what should scientists do? It may be exciting to postulate some unseen dimension impinging upon the orbit and say "We cannot understand." but that's not good science. While unseen dimensions cannot be proved to not exist, they currently provide very poor predictive capabilities. So several mundane 'fixes' were tried, and none worked. However, the answer was eventually found in theory of general relativity.
Did general relativity vastly change our understanding of the universe? You bet. Is general relativity supernatural because it explains something previously not understood? Not at all! Likewise the precession of Mercury's orbit was never 'supernatural' - just for a time not understood. While it can never be proved that an unseen dimension isn't impinging on Mercury's orbit, it is totally unneccessary to postulate it as a reason for changing the amount of precession because the simpler theory (general relativity) explains it adequately. Science never postulates a more complicated theory when a simpler one explains all observables perfectly well.
We can be in a state of not understanding all parts of the universe while at the same time saying, "A scientific explanation will one day be found for this non-supernatural but totally non-understood phenomenon."

 

[Jack Briggs]

This morning I had a reply to all this, but HTF went down just as I hit "Send," and my long-winded, arrogant post disappeared. I shall try again, and this is to amplify on what RobertR and JulieK are saying. It's in the form of a little story:

On the evening of December 7, 1972, the Apollo 17 mission was scheduled to launch at around 9:30 p.m. It would be the first and only time the mighty Saturn V launch vehicle lifted off at night.

Five minutes prior to when Cernan, Schmidt, and Evans were to be catapulted on what, unfortunately, would be the final manned mission to the Moon for far, far too long a time, one of the spacecraft's five computers stopped talking to the other four machines.

As a result, Launch Control at KSC put a hold on the countdown.

Meanwhile, oblivious to the countdown hold, a group of office workers had climbed upstairs to the roof of their building about three miles from KSC in order to enjoy a grandstand view of the spectacular night launch. Apparently, none of them thought to bring along a radio or a portable television. As a result, these enthusiastic people were unaware of the situation playing out at the Cape.

But they apparently thought they saw something at the scheduled time of the launch--what it could have been no one knows. But about ten minutes later, all twenty of them came down from the rooftop, reporting to various onloookers how "spectacular" and "awesome" the launch had been.

Unfortunately, Apollo 17 was still sitting at Pad 39-A, the astronauts strapped in and fuming. The launch would not occur until midnight.

News of this amusing story reached NBC-TV News anchor John Chancellor, and he could barely contain his laughter as he told his nationwide audience about the people who "saw" the "launch" of Apollo 17.

And there I was, sitting in front of my television, laughing my head off. I made a comment to my then girlfriend: "This is how 'UFO' stories get started."

Moral of this post: People see what they want to see. People want to believe in the so-called paranormal. People want to believe in little aliens with big eyes abducting hapless women and impregnating them. It's something different and not mundane.

Because people want so badly to see something out of the ordinary, they convince themselves that they do.

Don't think so? Well, how about all those people who saw Apollo 17 lift off when it was still on the launchpad?

The human mind is amazingly suggestible; credulity is so much easier than critical thinking.

That's why there are "ghosts"--because so many people want them to exist.

In addition to Skeptical Inquirer, btw, I might also suggest the quarterly glossy, Skeptic magazine. These are both great reads.

Arrogantly yours,

JB

 

[Bill Catherall]

We can be in a state of not understanding all parts of the universe while at the same time saying, "A scientific explanation will one day be found for this non-supernatural but totally non-understood phenomenon."

This I agree with 100%. And thank you BrianW for that post...that's exactly what I think as well.
Can a man (or woman ) pass through a brick wall without the aid of a door (and without knocking down the wall)? Science says it's impossible. But does that mean it is really impossible? Not in my opinion. The laws of physics that we currently understand state that it would be impossible. We wouldn't know how to do it if we tried. But nothing is impossible, we just have to know how to do it.

 

[Jack Briggs]

"But nothing is impossible, we just have to know how to do it."

That might be called wishful thinking. Will I some day be able to figure out how to sit next to a one-megaton nuclear device as it detonates yet somehow survive?

 

[Scott Hayes]

Just to clarify, I dont suscribe to any one theory as to what all of this so called "supernatural" activity is. Like I said in the beginning I believe 99.9% of it can be explained or one day will be explained. That these events occur, I have no doubt. Some may be caused by magnetism, mental suggestion, electricity (maybe that is why the hair on peoples necks stands up in these circumstances), gravitational forces (do we even know what gravity is yet?),

menatl illness, hoaxes, I can go on an on.

All things supernatural, by definition, are outside of nature and are not allowable for consideration in any scientific endeavor. So science does not “turn down its nose” at the supernatural – it’s just that supernatural events, by definition, are not allowable subjects for scientific study. Further, supernatural events also cannot serve as scientific explanations for natural phenomena. Those are simply the rules of the discipline. If you want someone to address the supernatural, then turn to someone other than a scientist. It’s simply not his job.

I respectfully disagree. These events have been going on since the beginning of recorded history. IMHO science is there to teach us what we do not know. Nobody knows what this is. What bothers me is the prejudice of some scientists to the idea of the weird and strange. (I am beginning to dislike the word supernatural, to many bad connotations).

Here is an example. A number of years ago I read a book about one of the early European explorers of Africa. (I cant remember his name). He was heavily funded by Universities and wealthy patrons. On his return he brought back wild tales of hairy man sized beasts that walk in a semi erect fashion. He was ridiculed and dismissed from every position he held in the academic world. He died penniless. There were article in scientific publications stating how a beast such as this explorer described was an afront to God and bordered on herasy. It wasnt long after he died that the first gorilas were captured. (This was also on the Discovery chanel last year)

My grandfather had old science digests that declared that it would be impossible for the human body to withstand the stress of going 200 MPH.

If I remember my history correctly wasnt Robert Fultans Steam Engine once called Fultans Folly. Yet it revolutionized the industrial age.

At one time Edisin was considered a crackpot.

I know none of these examples have to do with the supernatural. I am simply tring to illustrate the point that at times the scientific world needs a "crackpot crazy person" to tke them to the next level of undestanding.

We need the science to keep us grounded, but history is full of examples of the maveric disregarding scientific dogma and bringing us a new discovery.

 

[RobertR]

Reaction from a skeptic upon hearing that science has explained a phenomenon we didn't fully understand before:

"Wonderful! Reason and science has illuminated a bit more of the darkness! We understand the Universe better!"

Reaction from a "believer":

"Bleh. It was mysterious and exciting, and now it's mundane. I HATE it when scientists do that! I gotta go find something else to be mystified by".

And some will add:

"It's probably all lies anyway, aided by Big Science, Big Government, and Big Corporations. Anyone who shows me this 'proof' is under their thumb! I still think it hasn't been explained!"

 

[Bill Catherall]

Will I some day be able to figure out how to sit next to a one-megaton nuclear device as it detonates yet somehow survive?

I really don't see why not. Maybe we don't know how to do it now, but that doesn't mean that some means of protection is impossible.

 

[Bill Catherall]

Robert - (Just saw your post after posting mine.) I believe that my reaction would be that of your "skeptic," but I don't consider myself to be a skeptic. I think a skeptic would really say, "Well duh! I could have told you that all along and saved you all the trouble of scientific testing."

 

[Julie K]

I am simply tring to illustrate the point that at times the scientific world needs a "crackpot crazy person" to tke them to the next level of undestanding.

"They laughed at Christopher Columbus, they laughed at Einstein. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

There are far, far more Bozo the Clowns than the crazy crackpot genius.

 

[Bill Catherall]

Hey Julie - By the way...liked Shadow Over Innsmouth too. Creepy!

 

[Julie K]

I have a different version:
Report: Some people have seen a strange creature in the depths of the sea.
Skeptic: While new species of marine life are not impossible, until there is further data, it may be that some people are misinterpreting a known animal.
Believer: No, your minds are all closed! It's a giant alien being that lives under the sea and eats people! It has to be!
A few years go by, and a fisherman pulls up a giant squid:
Skeptic: Good, here we have proof of a new species. It's pretty cool and looks to fit in genus Megalacephalos. No doubt it caused many of the earlier reports.
Believer: Hah hah! See! Science was wrong!!! It must be wrong on everything else, too!
(BTW Bill, glad you keep enjoying Lovecraft - try some more )

 

[Jack Briggs]

Well, the conspiracy buffs apparently have a new television show tailored directly for them on TNN. One of the promos shows one nitwit claiming this planet is hollow (blissfully unaware, as he is, about the nature of planets and how they are formed). And, of course, an "abductee" is featured in the same promo.

And it's conversations like this that absolutely convince me science and mysticism will never intersect nor peacefully coexist. It's a polemical equivalent of oil and water.

My goodness, simply pick up a copy of Scientific American or Discover and try reading about the real world. The realities of astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology (and biology, etc., etc.) are so much more exciting than all this flying-saucer and "paranormal" nonsense.

I'll take super-massive black holes at the centers of galaxies any day to another ho-hum tale of little grey beings swiping sleeping victims and taking them into flying saucers that, somehow, are never seen by reliable witnesses.

Jesus.

 

[Scott Hayes]

There are more Bozo's than crackpot geniuses. It only takes one crackpot to change the world.
I've noticed that most of the skeptics call them ghost and abduction stories. Do they hide behind those terms because they fear the unkown? I think I am going to start calling them "events".
I dont consider myself a believer or a skeptic. I only know what happened to me and what I have heard others report. As long as these "events" are relageted to the "ghost story" category we will never know what is going on. There was a time were lightning was the power of God. Until some crazy guy but a key on a kite.
As far as that TNN show goes, I had to turn it off it was so bad.

 

[Bill Catherall]

Here's my version:
Report: Strange apparitions have been seen in the home of John Doe. John reports that he has not seen anything strange but hear's noises where clearly there is nothing there. However, his wife, Jane, claims to have seen "people" that vanish into thin air.
Skeptic: Oh it's just magnetic or electrical anomalies or an active imagination. You know the power of suggestion and the weakness of the human mind...
Believer: It's ghosts. The dead have come back and are haunting the house.
Skeptic: But there is no such thing as ghosts.
The good scientist: I can't draw any conclusions until all evidence is gathered and we perform further testing. (Later) Sorry, there's nothing to conclude because evidence was insufficient. File it under "Unsolved."
The bad scientist: Oh I've seen this one before and we found it to be an elaborate hoax by the kids. They planted speakers and lighting effects. So this one is nothing also. Case dismissed.
I'm wondering...how about a little poll:
Hypothetically speaking, in 10 years scientist prove the existance of ghosts, or unseen beings. Do you:
a) feel vindicated. Everything you've ever believed in is now found to be true by "unbelievers." You're previous distrust of science is now gone.
b) feel betrayed. You've put your trust in science and now it failed you. There is no such thing as ghosts.
c) feel stupid. You made up your mind long ago that ghosts aren't real and now science says you're wrong.
d) feel enlightened. Science has furthered our understanding and has shed light on the unknown.
e) feel confused. There must be some mistake somewhere.
My answer: D (with just a touch of A only because I believe in ghosts but hold no distrust in science)

 

[Scott Hayes]

On a side note, someone said something about sitting next to a nuclear expotion. Would it be possible to contain a nuclear expotion? If it became possible why not link a few megaton devices together, put a ship on top of it and use the expotions as a means of propulsion. I,ll bet that rocket would really move!

As far as Bill's poll goes I would have to go with D

 

[Henry Carmona]

Eve,
Yes i got the pics.
Thank you!!!

 

[BrianW]

I’m inclined to agree with Bill’s notion that “things are impossible only until they’re not.” Having said that, I’ll add the caveat that some things, I’m quite sure, will be impossible until the end of the Universe. (And my answer is D, but I’d want to read the article in Nature for myself.)
As for the dismissal of personal testimony that cannot be proved or corroborated by evidence (the gorilla example), this is the proper procedure in the pursuit of science, and of knowledge in general. To accept anecdotal testimony as scientific proof (note that scientific proof is not the same as, for example, legal proof) would plunge us into an era of Lovecraftian Dark Ages so fast that it would make your head spin. Spin, I tell you! Take my word for it! Really, it’s true! Heads will literally spin!
And if you don’t believe me, then you simply don’t have an open mind.

 

[Scott Hayes]

Eve,
I'd like to see the pics
[email protected]

 

[Joseph Young]

Great thread.
While it's true that science offers up phenomenona just as fascinating - if not more fascinating - than some of the tales shared in this thread, it is my personal belief that we as human beings need to use the 'fantastical' and the 'illogical' as a way to explore cultural myth and human psychology.
There is a reason so many believe in these things. And let me offer this up: it is not because they are necessarily true, nor should it be seen as a crutch, but rather the cultivation of collective imagination.
I live in the Silicon Valley, and we are surrounded by dense foothills -- especially east of Fremont and West of San Jose -- from which many freaky stories have emerged.
Take the Chicken Man, for instance. I heard the story from a friend who claims to have 'met' the chicken man in the hills near South San Jose or thereabouts. There is a windy road which takes a sharp s-turn, flanked on one side by foliage and thick overbrush and a sheer cliff on the other -- at the bottom of which is a big rock quarry. At the bottom of this quarry you can see the charred remnants of several vehicles: a VW Van (still prevalent around here) and several other indistinguishable metal corpses.
The Chicken Man drives an old Chevrolet through this area from time to time. His truckbed is stacked full of chicken coops, full of live squawking chickens, and empty cages, bloody feathers. He is seen around dusk and early in the morning and he will run you off the road-- or attempt to-- if he gets the chance. My friend Eric encountered the man. He does not believe he was hallucinating. He can remember the figure, the hat, the wild eyes, and the insistant gesturing to the quarry below, as if... as if "you belong down there. You're next"
The other story is Albinos. This one is potentially offensive to those here at the HTF who may be albinos, and it is not meant as a sweeping derogatory statement. There are, in fact, word-of-mouth accounts of a group of settled mountain people who live deep in the foothills (and believe it or not, there are regions, even here in Silly Valley, which still lay relatively untouched by 'progress').
You can see traces of stone walls, rising from the earth where townships used to be. Trick of the light, perhaps, but you can see pale ghostly heads staring from behind these walls - a la Princess Mononoke. And of course there are the preposterous tales of burning logs being thrown into the small utility roads when you try to pass through. I have driven through these roads late at night - with friends, thank goodness - and I have seen absolutely nothing to support these ridiculous claims.
However, be it due to my own expectation, or to something truly sinister in those woods (and let's face it, one cannot prove either way because it's subjective experience) I had a mental breakdown there. My friend kept stopping the car and sitting quietly, rolling down her windows... and I started screaming at her to keep moving, to keep driving, because something was coming up from either side... or at least it felt like it.
I love talking about stuff like this. It stokes my imagination. There is a place for it. And if we knew either way it would lose its luster. Areas of science that remain uncertain - and some would argue most do - are the most fascinating to me. And I would wager a guess that this is true for a lot of you.
Cheers,
Joseph

 

[Eve T]

Henry, glad you got them. Let me know what you think. I really have no explanation for them.

Eve