The Cinematography Discussion #1 (2 Viewers)

[Rain]

Thanks, Robert.

I'm no expert on photography, but I was finding it hard to believe that the look of that scene happened by chance.

 

[Robert Harris]

Specific camera setups and info and on filters, footage, etc will only be found in daily camera reports, not in the production reports which Peggy Robertson would have been keeping.

Since neither has all of the daily breakdowns, the two must be interrelated for full information.

RAH

 

[David Tolsky]

I didn't check previous posts with a fine tooth comb to know who Peggy Robertson is, but if she is the script supervisor, it is very possible that she took camera setup notes. I have been on several shoots in the past where Script Supervisors have asked the camera assistant for such information. Now I wasn't around in the '50s so I can't vouch for how daily camera reports were done BACK THEN. But I can tell you when I had to make them out as a Second AC, only occasionally did they mention what filter was used, and never had camera setup information. Counted footage, circled takes (the good ones) scene number and take number is the only info for the lab. Good camera assistants will keep an independent log of camera setups, lens focal length, filter, camera to subject distance, and photographic stop on the lens. There isn't much room for all of that on a daily camera report, except for maybe filter used (important info to the lab).

 

[JohnRice]

Thanks for the info, gentlemen. I would like to ask of either, or both of you to explain, at least to some degree, a term I hear in cinematography that I am completely unfamiliar with in still photography. That is the topic of "color timing." Any info you can contribute would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Thanks for the info Robert, and David.

I also have been wondering about John's question, how exactly color correction/timing is done, non computer of course.

 

[george kaplan]

The notes in the reprinted int the Vertigo book include the following columns:

Setup No.

Takes Made

Slates Printed

Time First Setup Given

Time Camera Ready

Time First Take

Time Scene Completed

Description of Angles, Action and Dialogue

Here's a example of what the notes contain:

Setup No.: 5

Takes Made: 2

Slates Printed: 5X-2 25'

Time First Setup Given: 11.20

Time Camera Ready: 11.30

Time First Take: 11.35

Time Scene Completed: 11.40 sun

Description of Angles, Action and Dialogue: Sc:76.Ext:Graveyard.Day.Closer shot of 4X. Madeleine looking at tombstone 40 mm.

 

[Robert Harris]

Color timing in its most simplistic form is done at the laboratory by a timer.

The timer will view the cut negative on a piece of equipment via which he/she will assign "lights," ie yellow, cyan , and magenta exposures for each cut shot in the roll of film.

The roll is then printed with these lights -- changing each time a cut goes by. That print is then screened and new

corrected lights are assigned and a second, third, fourth, etc. print struck until all of the scenes cut together concurrently correctly.

Once all of the lights are confirmed; director, dp and others are happy with what the timer has created, that final accepted print will be considered a final answer print.

The cut neg will now be prepared to have separation masters, IPs and a handful of Oneg prints struck for release.

RAH

 

[Gabe D]

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add regarding the actual topic. However, I'd like to clear one thing up:

In many ways Mr Show is the American version of MPFC. Sadly it only lasted 9 episodes thanks in large part to business aspects.

Actually, there are 30 episodes. The first 2 seasons (10 episodes) were just released on DVD. There are 2 more seasons of 10 episodes each. If you ask me, the later episodes are even funnier. There is also a Mr. Show feature film, Run Ronnie Run!, which New Line has been holding unreleased for about a year.
You can learn more about Mr. Show at the Bob and David website: http://www.bobanddavid.com/
Now, back to cinematography...

 

[David Tolsky]

Experienced DP's are familiar with the timing light numbers and where these groups of numbers fall. Lot's of DP's have written into their contracts which lab they prefer and even go as far as requesting a familiar color timer. One time I worked with a Japanese DP who was adamant about timing lights. He must have worked in a lab because he was requesting specific timing lights for each color catagory. He'd have me on the phone to the lab in Burbank (we were shooting in Santa Fe, NM) requesting to the color timer to time the neg to specific lights. That's a pretty rare case and most of the time it doesn't get that specific, but generally, DP's will monitor the chosen lights from roll to roll for consistency.

 

[JohnRice]

Thank you again, gentlemen.

The word "timing" wasn't making sense to me, but now I think I get where it comes from. Hopefully I am not completely dense and I am getting what you are saying. Timing has nothing to do with processing but is color correction during the exposure of the print as the film is being duplicated from negative to positive. Is that correct?

 

[JohnRice]

So. Is it getting to be time to stick a fork in this thread?

Anyone else?

 

[Seth Paxton]

I PM's Gabe for the clear-up on the sidebar (Mr. Show).
David (or Robert), do you have any recommendations on a good book to learn more about timing (and other cinematography)?
My curiousity to fully understand the process has only been piqued by all the good stuff handed out so far. I thought maybe you guys might have some reference books that you sometimes turn to (or used to). I know with engineering I have a couple of "old reliables".

 

[David Tolsky]

Seth,
One of the best ways to keep up with current trends in Cinematography is to subscribe to American Cinematographer magazine. It is one of the oldest publications of it's type in the world, with the first issue published in 1921. I have had about 4 articles published in it myself
My subscription started in 1980 when I was in film school. Since that time, I went back and acquired back issues to the early 60's and beyond. You will learn all the responsibilties of being a Director of Photography and hear what they have to say concering current feature releases.
A classic book is The 5 C's of Cinematography by Maccelli (?) although it is probably out of print by now and hard to find. If you want to have an invaluable resource in all things to do with Cinematography on the technical side, the American Society of Cinematographers publishes The American Cinematographers Manual. This is the bible that DP's and Assistants actually carry with them on the set. It's an incredible source packed with information. I've seen older copies of it on ebay a little cheaper. Hope this helps!
DT.

 

[JohnRice]

Thanks for that info, David. I think I'll be getting a subscription and maybe trying to find at least one of the books, if only for jollies.

 

[Robert Harris]

Re: George Kaplan's June 1st cinematographic breakdown of "Vertigo":

One shot that hopefully does not stand out as problematic, but which was an absolute bear in terms of restoration, is the scene which takes place Int. Argosy Bookshop.

The problem was yellow layer failure in the original VVLA negative.

With YLF, the thinner the negative, the worse the affect of the failure.

Here, within a single shot was a constantly darkening exposure in synchronization with both the tale being told within the bookshop and the storm outside.

As the negative became thinner and thinner the yellow layer failure became more and more obvious with shadows going blue, facial highlights turning crustaceon and, consequently whites going yellow in an attempt to compensate.

This shot was handled as a series of multiple dissolves within the restored elements, with more and more compensation, exposure and processing in an attempt to control gamma on the interpositive element.

The darker the scene became within the single shot, the more the fading and yellow layer failure became obvious.

The only way around the constantly changing, yet stagnant frame was the use of multiple dissolves in an attempt to modify and equalize the look of the thinner and thinner negative image.

This information is offered to turn anyone who had even the slightest desire to find a career in film restoration violently against any such idea.

RAH

 

[george kaplan]

Robert,
It may have been a major pain in the ass, but you guys did a great job restoring Vertigo. I know you've heard it before, but let me reiterate - Thank you very much!
If you manage to get Mad World done with all the deleted footage (or even some of it) back in, there won't be words to express my gratitude.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Thanks for the info David, exactly what I was looking for.
Robert, .

 

[JohnRice]

Robert,

I can't imagine possessing the patience to do what you do so well.

I was hoping you might have some information on how the shot of Kim Novak walking into the hotel room near the end of the film was lit, or generally how the effect was achieved. Anything you can contribute is appreciated.

 

[JohnRice]

Well folks, it's pretty obvious this thread is one for the books.
I have a request. A lot of time was put into this thread by myself and the other contributors, who are:
PatrickL
Seth Paxton
George Kaplan
not to mention Agee Bassett, who for reasons beyond his control, was not able to do his film.
I know a lot of people have read this thread but did not feel comfortable about contributing. I would just like to ask those ones to let all the guys know you were here reading this thread.
Thanks to everyone who dropped by.

 

[Adam_S]

I've thorogoughly enjoyed this thread, and though I only got around to writing a post for The man in the Moon I did seek out and watch Out of Sight and Vertigo (oddly enough I had looked up in Trauffaut/Hitchcock their discussion of Vertigo and he specifically mentions that a fog filter is used on the Mission Delores segment, yet somehow I forgot to post that after looking it up). I was really looking forward to discussing Oliver Twist.. what ever happened to it? and of course will there be a cinematography discussion number 2?

thanks everyone for an outstanding and excellent thread

Adam