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Survivor - Heroes vs. Villians (season 20) official discussion thread (1 Viewer)

AnthonyC

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Ok, giving this a go...the top 27 players in 20 seasons of Survivor (originally a top 25 but I forgot somebody after I started ). My general criteria is that the best players are the ones who seem likely to do well and have a chance of winning if you put them in any group of strangers playing the game.


27. Yau-man Chan Fiji - 4th; Micronesia - 18th

A fantastic strategist and social player, but being too trusting (in Dreamz and Earl) was his downfall.


26. Earl Cole Fiji - Winner

If push comes to shove, I'd probably say he has the best social game of any player ever. After all, he won 9-0. But strategically, he was very much along for the ride and didn't do a whole lot of thinking for himself.


25. Jon Dalton Pearl Islands - 3rd; Micronesia - 20th

I know what you're thinking--he pushed the jurors' buttons almost as much as Russell, so why am I including Fairplay? The critical difference is that a majority of the jury liked or respected him, albeit in some cases begrudgingly. Sitting next to Lill, the dead grandma prankster could've won a million dollars. The problem is that it's equally likely for someone to despise him as it is for them to love him.


24. Amanda Kimmel China - 3rd; Micronesia - 2nd; Heroes vs. Villains - 9th

Mostly strong socially and a very subtly good strategist. But as she admits, she just lacks that killer instinct; she sets up her opponents to lose and then fails to deliver the KO. Plus, she's not quite as great a liar as she would like to think.


23. Rob Mariano Marquesas - 10th; All-Stars - 2nd; Heroes vs. Villains - 13th

Another abrasive player but when he puts his ego aside, he manages to get people on his side. Even in All-Stars, where he played arguably ruthlessly, he only lost by one vote. He does have the finesse; but sometimes pushes people further than necessary.


22. JT Thomas Tocantins - Winner; Heroes vs. Villains - 10th

He unanimously won and never got a single vote against him but he needs to attach himself to a strong strategic player for his charm to affect people. But it really did in Tocantins; he somehow managed to convince half the merged tribe to directly or indirectly play for him to win.


21. Gregg Carey Palau - 6th

Seems like an odd pick, especially since he has the lowest peak position (only position in his case) of anyone on the list. But I think Gregg is possibly the greatest 'game theory' player ever in that he analyzed and based every move he made around what everybody else's best move at that point was. His biggest flaw is waiting too long to pull the trigger, because Ian finally became suspicious of Gregg's position at the final six, orchestrating his blindside.


20. Rafe Judkins Guatemala - 3rd

For 38 days, he played beautifully. He was the subtle brains behind an alliance with the increasingly unlikable Stephenie and managed to get Danni in his pocket too. He had F2 deals with both and got to the F3 with them, where he should've been sitting pretty. But to gain sympathy, he told final immunity winner Danni she didn't need to keep their deal...so she didn't. A stupid, unnecessary mistake that just wasn't thought through at all.


19. Colby Donaldson Australian Outback - 2nd; All-Stars - 12th; Heroes vs. Villains - 5th

Similar to Rafe--41 days of near-perfect play. The only thing separating him from victory are four letters: T-I-N-A. It's more a mark of her brilliance than his stupidity that he took her to the end. Unfortunately, Colby's effort is directly related to his morale as proven in subsequent appearances.


18. Rob Cesternino Amazon - 3rd; All-Stars - 15th

The first person to flip on nearly a daily basis. Rob was always about making deals that would put him a spot or two higher on the totem pole. He earned enemies in the process, but he was playing in a cast where just about everybody was enemies with everybody else at some point or another. His downfall? Teaching Matt everything he needed to know how to play Survivor. By the end, Matt was making deals Rob had no clue about, including one that ultimately led to Rob's elimination.


17. Todd Herzog China - Winner

He was super-slick and everybody knew it, and sometimes his ego got the best of him (deciding to blindside James at F9 and then switching the vote to Jean-Robert when JR approached him with the same plan out of irritation). But he excelled at the jury by doing what Russell lacks the knowledge to do--he takes credit for his moves while doling out compliments and charming each juror one by one rather than just saying "I outplayed you, give me your vote."


16. Stephen Fishbach Tocantins - 2nd

JT's partner in crime, who was nearly as well-liked throughout and then suddenly and randomly became a goat at the final TC. He didn't think well on his feet and got flustered, so JT won unanimously. He brought the minority alliance to the end from a 6-3 disadvantage at the merge. So how is he different than Russell? Simple. Stephen's strategy actually can lead to a win. He probably chose the wrong person to team up with just because the Tocantins cast fell under JT's spell for some reason but Stephen had no reason to expect that so many people would be willing to throw themselves under the bus for JT's sake.


15. Chris Daugherty Vanuatu - Winner

Note to Russell: if you ever play again, this is the guy you need to emulate. Chris isn't really the strongest strategist although he is a likable guy. But Chris earns this spot solely because of his final TC performance. This guy gets it. Two jurors came into the final TC furious with him for the unnecessarily harsh way he voted them out; one was reduced to tears. So Chris too turns on the waterworks, berating himself and explaining how guilty he feels and how much he regrets it. This is how you do it. When you're in the finals, you check your pride at the door, screw being honest, and tell those jurors what they want to hear. It's quite simply the finest performance any finalist has ever given. Even though Scout called him out for his BS, both those jurors--and three others--gave him the votes to win.


14. Yul Kwon Cook Islands - Winner

What makes Yul's game difficult to rank is that he had the most powerful form of the idol, that could be played after the votes were read. Thus, he had no reason to keep it hidden. Despite having such a huge advantage, I can't deny he used it brilliantly. He was also smart in controlling the boots while letting others feel that they were deciding how it went down (particularly Jonathan's boot).


13. Teresa Cooper Africa - 5th

Probably the most random person on the list since her season was so long ago and she never returned unfortunately. Teresa is the type of person who could play a hundred times and probably go far in 99 of them. There really is no reason to vote her out--she's super-likable, pulls her weight in challenges and around camp, and the wheels are always turning. She just had the misfortune of being on the minority tribe, but she still made so many close-call strategic maneuvers that could've put her on top if other people hadn't screwed up (ala Sandra trying to get rid of Russell). Teresa really approached every possible angle she could but was unable to overcome the odds.


12. Natalie White Samoa - Winner

A very simple, but very effective strategy. Latch onto somebody who turns people off and wait to collect your check. You won't win a lot of respect from Survivor fans, but somehow I don't think that's quite as important to people as a million bucks.


11. Amber Brkich Australian Outback - 6th; All-Stars - Winner

See above, although Amber employed this strategy twice. The reason she outranks Natalie is because she and Rob did co-conspire whereas Natalie just allowed Russell to make the decisions and that was that.


10. Vecepia Towery Marquesas - Winner

Most underrated winner (player?) ever. Another one that Survivor fans tend to discredit because she was boring and played UTR but Vecepia is one of the most dastardly brilliant and subtle players ever. She stirred up conflict but remained out of it herself (see the fantastic penultimate episode of Marquesas) and invented the idea of making deals at the final IC that has popped up in most subsequent seasons.


9. Danni Boatwright Guatemala - Winner

Like Chris, she was in a bad position, the last member of her alliance standing towards the middle of the merge. But while Chris had to wait for Twila to open the door, Danni paved the way herself, integrating herself within the group and especially its mastermind Rafe. Pretty soon, she was sitting in the finals next to Steph, who had betrayed her allies left and right partly because of Danni, who won 6-1.


8. Cirie Fields Panama - 4th; Micronesia - 3rd; Heroes vs. Villains - 17th

What Cirie lacks in physical ability she makes up for mentally. She's one of the best strategists ever and has a fantastic social game. She completely controls how her tribemates think, which is why nobody wants to face her in the finals. She's improved her physical game with each subsequent appearance so if she can win that final challenge next time, she's set.


7. Kathy Vavrick O'Brien Marquesas - 3rd; All-Stars - 8th

Best player never to win. Ultimate comeback too--started off as an inevitable first boot on her tribe but by the end almost everyone on the jury was rooting for her. She's a brilliantly analytical player, strong in challenges, and is always open to deals. The only flaw in her game the first time was thinking that Vee was going to honor their F2 deal when Kathy was clearly going to destroy her 6-1 in the vote.


6. Brian Heidik Thailand - Winner

301 people have played the game, and Brian's the closest to a sociopath (sorry, Russell, you're runner-up once again). He was sleazy, controlling, ruthless...and had the foresight to take somebody to the end with him that was even less likable. Brian's probably the best planner ever in terms of strategy, although it was a close call; he only won by one vote. How did he pull it off? He told the jurors that were angry at him what they wanted to hear. It's not that hard!


5. Sandra Diaz-Twine Pearl Islands - Winner; Heroes vs. Villains - Winner

No matter what you think of her gameplay, you can't argue with her record. The goal of the game is to win, and she's 2 for 2. Obviously I don't consider her the best ever but she's certainly the most adaptable from Tribal Council to Tribal Council. At the same time she's been on the wrong side of so many votes in both her seasons...but she always has a Plan B. And that's what makes her a great player.


4. Richard Hatch Borneo - Winner; All-Stars - 14th

Don't think I need to explain this one; he pretty much invented the standard of how to play the game.


3. Parvati Shallow Cook Islands - 6th; Micronesia - Winner; Heroes vs. Villains - 2nd

Another fairly obvious one. She's probably had more luck than any other winner to be honest, but that's part of the game. She's strong in pretty much every aspect and reads people well but there have but many instances of things totally outside her control keeping her alive. Indeed, she'd have been the first one out of Micronesia if Fairplay hadn't asked to be voted out.


2. Tom Westman Palau - Winner; Heroes vs. Villains - 16th

Best all-around player in terms of challenges, social, and strategy. But he didn't always position himself well; three times in his seasons, individual immunity has been the only thing that kept him in the game.


1. Tina Wesson Australian Outback - Winner; All-Stars - 18th

The most subtle and strategic player of all time. Colby didn't make a stupid decision; Tina had total control over him. Bottom line: Tina was largely responsible for almost every single person's boot in Outback and not a single one left the game annoyed with her (ok, maybe Jerri, but she still preferred Tina over Colby or Keith).
 

Stephen_L

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Great list Anthony. I think the only addition I'd make is Terry Deitz (not sure I spelled it right) from Survivor: Panama. He found an immunity idol when it was really hard to find them. He was awesome in challenges. He made it to the final three and lost in what I felt was a lame challenge (trying to balance on styrofoam floats. He lost only because he was the heaviest player sinking the smaller floats) At the reunion if he had made the final two, the jury would have voted him the winner over either of the two actual finalists including Aras the eventual winner. (Jeff actually had the jury vote both theoretical scenarios)
 

Chris Lockwood

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Originally Posted by Carl Miller

I'm not a Russell apologist, and I understand every word you said. But the overlooked part of this story is that one thing you said is not true....They don't have to live with him 24/7 for weeks. They could vote him off first chance they get, or the second, or at the start of the merge, or even when it's down to the final 4 or 5. One would think, in fact, that if he were so insulting, pompous and ego maniacal they would all band together and vote him off just to make their lives more pleasant .

That was part of my point- if they really hate him so much, why don't they get rid of him?
 

Patrick Sun

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Because Russell is the guy you want to sit next to in final tribal council. The trick is to manuever yourself into that spot, and that's where a lot of people failed because they wouldn't deal with his meglomanical personality and use him up like a 2-bit Survivor whore for jury votes like Natalie and Sandra did.
 

Stephen_L

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Russell is also not easy to get rid of. He has a habit of finding idols which offer him a great deal of protection from votes. Truthfully, if you make idols harder to find, or put fewer in play, Russell does not last as long.
 

Stephen_L

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Some folks still don't seem to understand the game. I might find Russell a bully, obnoxious, delusionally self-important, but I'd happily use him if it would advance me in the game. In the same token, if I landed in the jury I'd not vote for him because he's a bully, obnoxious, delusionally self-important, not because he makes and breaks alliances. Just because I'll use a noxious player to advance me in the game, does not obligate me to vote for him.
 

Hanson

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Wow Anthony, lots of curveballs in your list for me. Your #1, for example -- not expected. I limited my list to 10: 10. Russell Hantz -- Okay, so I've been putting down Russell for his performance in HvV, so it might seem odd for me to have him in my top ten. He definintely loses points for not grasping the social game on any level, but his strategix moves and his balls to the wall gameplay deserve some credit. Giving away his immunity to Parvati in HvV was an incredible gamble and amazing gameplay. I give credit to Russell for flopping Tyson's vote -- I really do believe if Russell hadn't told Tyson that they were going to vote for Parv, the splitting votes plan would have worked. Russell took a minority alliance and worked them into the majority in both seasons -- those feats cannot go unrecognized.

9. Boston Rob -- Probably deserved to win All-Stars, but for all intents and purposes, the fact that he was able to bring Amber to the finals with him made it six of one, half a dozen of another. I thought he was awful in Marquesas and didn't understand why he was even invited to All-Stars but he totally controlled that season. He was an even better player in HvV but ran into the Russell buzzsaw. Rob is triple threat -- a challenge monster with social game and deep strategy. But the problem with winning so many immunities for your tribe means it starts getting bottom heavy, and that's when people start flipping and making moves. That's what stopped Rob in HvV.

8. JT -- Some will say that JT's strategic game went by the name of Stephen Fishbach judging by the way he handled himself in HvV, but JT absolutely owned Tocantins. How do you walk into a merge with a minorty alliance and have the upper hand the whole time? And even though he was front and center for all the jury boots, JT still got all the votes. There was some serious social game mojo going on.

7. Todd -- Players who control the game from start to finish tend to end up on this list, and Todd is no different. The amazing part is that Todd pretty much pathetic in challenges, yet never needed protection of immunity to stay in the game. His FTC performance was classic -- suckering Jean Robert into voting for him by feeding into his ego was a masterstroke.

6. Tom -- Another player that absolutely controlled the game, and was able to handle the tribe that never lost an immunity challenge. As Boston Rob learned in HvV, bottom rung players in large tribes will flip and splinter. Tom neutralized these threats before he was affected. He won a ton of immunities, but he was exposed a couple of times but was able to engineer votes to others regardless. I don't think any winner had a target on their back for as long as Tom did. I know that I wrote him off on day one as being too strong to make it to the finals.

5. Yul -- While he didn't control the game from day one, he took charge of a minority tribe (in more ways than one) and using his wits was able to engineer multiple tribal immunity challenge wins as well as discover what was a truly hidden immunity idol. Made a deal with Adam for the deciding FTC vote and was able to get votes from Candice and Penner when he could have easily been Ozzy's goat for being the architect of the destruction of Rarotonga.

4. Sandra -- I know she has two Sole Survivor titles, but Jim Plunkett has two Superbowl rings and he's neither in the Hall of Fame nor ever comes up in the discussion of Greatest QB's of all time, so showing up at number four is still a good showing. Sandra's UTR gameplay isn't flashy, but its effectiveness is not in doubt. But in HvV, she became the most visible UTR player ever, and nestled herself into a position where she had no alliances but was considered a member of every possible alliance. One more new nugget of brilliance -- when Danielle and Parvati wanted to keep Courtney right before merge, Sandra told Russell that if he brought her to merge and she made the jury, she would vote for him. And that's one of the reasons why Sandra won HvV. In regards to the Jim Plunkett anaolgy -- had she only won one season, she probably wouldn't be in the top 10, but for her 2 for 2 results, there's no way to keep her out of the top 5.

3. Pavarti -- Another player I had zero regard for her first time out, Parvati controlled the post merge game of FvF by holding on to her Favorites alliances and cultivating a huge alliance with the Fans. But she really shined in HvV, bringing a challenge prowess that made her a complete player and a strategic game that manifested itself in the move of the season, playing both HII's in one TC to ensure that JT was voted off. The brilliance of that move cannot be overstated, and the key to it was the HII that Russell didn't know about -- had he known she already had one, he probably wouldn't not have given up his HII. Parvati seemed to be able to win immunity every time her neck was on the line, and that makes for great TV.

2. Brian Heidick -- I have never seen a season of Survivor like Thailand, where every did everything Brian told them to do like zombie slaves. It was incredible -- he smooth talked his entire tribe into his bidding, and although the spell wore off at FTC, he was smart enough to bring a goat with him to take attention away from the fact that he was a sociopath. It was one of those seasons where you knew he was going to win from day one. The closest thing to a cult leader on Survivor -- he was like Thulsa Doom and he wielded the power of flesh. I'm surprised he didn't start his own cult with the million dollars.

1. Richard Hatch -- Richard is on top of the list for basically inventing Survivor. Pretty much every game concept that every Survivor is based on was introduced by Hatch. There were no alliances in the inaugural season until Hatch created the concept. I remember when Gretchen was voted out at merge -- Richard Hatch was insane! But it was pure strategy to take out the strongest player. Pagoning was invented by Hatch. And the only time he was ever in danger of being voted off, he won the fire-making challenge. If you look back, it's amazing how fully formed the game was by the end of season one, and that was because of Hatch. He is absolutely the greatest player of all time, and I have no idea how he could ever be unseated.
 

Carl Miller

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Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood




That was part of my point- if they really hate him so much, why don't they get rid of him?
Because they benefit from his presence. He helps get people voted off, and makes others hate him in the process. A purely ethical person standing on principle would vote Russell off for treating others as badly as he does...but they check their ethics and principles at the door in the name of winning the prize and/or the game.


Few of them play in an ethical or principled manner...that's why it's so silly that they all suddenly stand on ethics and principle once they're out of the game.
 

Chris Lockwood

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Originally Posted by Stephen_L

Russell is also not easy to get rid of. He has a habit of finding idols which offer him a great deal of protection from votes. Truthfully, if you make idols harder to find, or put fewer in play, Russell does not last as long.

There were plenty of times when he didn't have an idol and could be voted out- once he even gave away an idol. So that doesn't explain it.
 

Chris Lockwood

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Originally Posted by Carl Miller


Few of them play in an ethical or principled manner...that's why it's so silly that they all suddenly stand on ethics and principle once they're out of the game.

Since when is it a game of ethics? It's not a nice guy contest. That's why they say Outwit, Outlast, Outplay, not Outnice or Outsource.
 

mattCR

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I believe that win or lose, the contestants do get compensated for the days they are on camera. It's not $1M, but it's not chicken scratch. Russel plays the game to get all the way to the end. And he's good at that. He won't win it all, but let's be blunt, the $200K he picked up from the two at home prizes + his on air isn't anything to sneeze at. In fact, if his strategy is partly to be outrageous enough that he gets to the end and win or lose, he gets America's vote (and he is always confident he will be enough of a character that that is possible) then it's also not a bad one. Winning the whole thing is a crapshoot... being outrageous and winning the $100k is a bit easier in some ways.
 

Chris Lockwood

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Russell was right that there's a flaw in the game, but it's not the way he described it.


The problem is that when it gets to the last 1 or 2 tribal councils before the jury votes, someone who played a great game, who everyone likes and respects, will usually get voted out since he would have won- unless he wins immunity. So the best player goes from #1 to #4 or #5 and a less-deserving player wins. I don't know how to fix this, though.


They need to go back to a final 2 instead of 3. Then the winner would have to get a majority, and undeserving "players" like Sandra would have a lower chance of loafing into the finals.


As long as it's a final 3, it would be interesting to have the final 3 vote along with the jury, with the rule that they have to vote for one of the other finalists. That might not change the outcome but it would be interesting to see who would vote for whom and add the need to try to get votes from your fellow finalists.


An interesting, but very boring, season would have all players like Sandra and Vecepia, so we could see how they do without a Russell to actually make things happen. People who think Sandra should have won deserve a boring season like that. Would they all starve before the 39 days end? That season might have to be filmed at a hotel.
 

Carl Miller

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood




Since when is it a game of ethics? It's not a nice guy contest. That's why they say Outwit, Outlast, Outplay, not Outnice or Outsource.
I didn't say it was a game of ethics. I said if it was, they'd vote him off simply based on how he treats people.
 

Stephen_L

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Chris read my comments completely. I gave Russell props for being good at forging alliances, using intimidation as well as finding and using idols. He is a great game player, but his destructive personal interactions GUARANTEE that juries will hate him and not give him the million. He has most of the tools, but lacks the critical social element, to generate begrudging respect from the people he votes off, that prevents him from closing the deal. (And it is critical because the jury makes the final call) Juries aren't angry towards him because he's a good strategist or they were hoodwinked by him, its because he goes out of his way to crap on them.
 

mattCR

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They didn't do quite this, but in early seasons of the game, they said that all the votes against you were tallied from the moment you walked onto the island (so you got "3" votes against week 2, then "2" week 5 etc) and in case of a tie, to get to the final tribal (when it was two people) the one with the fewest total votes against would go.


I like that system. If they did it that way.. the one with the fewest standing votes against them (votes against when an idol play do not count, still) for the total of the journey should have a portion of the vote in the final two as well. :)
 

Patrick Sun

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Originally Posted by Stephen_L

Chris read my comments completely. I gave Russell props for being good at forging alliances, using intimidation as well as finding and using idols. He is a great game player, but his destructive personal interactions GUARANTEE that juries will hate him and not give him the million. He has most of the tools, but lacks the critical social element, to generate begrudging respect from the people he votes off, that prevents him from closing the deal. (And it is critical because the jury makes the final call) Juries aren't angry towards him because he's a good strategist or they were hoodwinked by him, its because he goes out of his way to crap on them.

At the end of Russell's first season, when it down to the final 3 (Natalie, Mick and Russell) with just the final tribal council ahead of them, Russell was still an A-hole to them (in some misguided notion that his verbal rantings and beratings would rattle them for their final tribal council performance). He's a jerk. Juries seldom, if ever, collectively vote for a jerk.
 

AnthonyC

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Originally Posted by Stephen_L like Russell to keep the show entertaining (although frankly, I find Sandra way more entertaining a character--Russell is incredibly one-note). The thing is, if you assembled a cast of Sandra, Vecepia, Tina, Danni, Brian, etc. you probably would end up with a lot of the most clever and well-developed gameplay the show had ever seen--but it would be a total snooze to watch for sure. For the most part, smart gameplay is pretty boring.
 

Martino

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I think they should do a season with only people who were voted off first from their tribes from their seasons - give them another chance. It would be full of people who were either so week in challenges or so annoying to be voted off first.
 

Patrick Sun

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Originally Posted by Martino

I think they should do a season with only people who were voted off first from their tribes from their seasons - give them another chance. It would be full of people who were either so week in challenges or so annoying to be voted off first.

I've suggested this idea as well, but I suspect that it would be excruciating to watch over the course of a season because most of those first vote-offs have poor social skills, and it could make for really boring or dumb game play.
 

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