STOP UNIVERSALS combo disks (1 Viewer)

[Neil Middlemiss]

Because the OP said "All Universals prior efforts to make combo disks has been a disaster
that skips or fails after short usage" and since my discs would be included in his "all", his argument is not sound. I also suspect, if the failure were on the scale the OP alludes, these boards would be lit up with such claims. They aren't.

And how do you know that collection you have of Blurays will not go bad simply because they have not "yet". I can use the same argument, but it is no less valid. I have discs on my shelf that are the very first of the combo discs that are still playable without issue. Again, I am not here to convince anyone to do anything - merely pointing out that the argument used by the original poster is faulty because A) I am proof that not ALL combo discs "skip or fail after short usage", and B) the scale of faults that the original poster asserts would have resulted significant commentary on HTF - and there has not been. Doesn't mean there are no defects, but that also does not mean that sweeping statements that don't hold up should go without critique.

Originally Posted by Jeff Ulmer

I'm glad you haven't experienced any failures with your discs, but how can you make the assertion that just because you haven't seen any failures (yet) that it is a false argument? There were lots of people who denied laser rot and I'm sure there are thousands of people who haven't had, or haven't discovered, their DVDs fail (yet) who believe nothing can go wrong, but when you have a few hundred dollars worth of media that has rotted away (at least that I know of, there could be tens or hundreds of my other discs that have gone bad too), you approach what appears to be a more complicated manufacturing process with a bit of skepticism.

I don't know what effect a petition would have, but I can say that I'm not going to be buying any of these until they have a long established track record, and if some awareness makes the studios rethink their approach, so be it.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ulmer
There were lots of people who denied laser rot and I'm sure there are thousands of people who haven't had, or haven't discovered, their DVDs fail (yet) who believe nothing can go wrong

Those may be the people you'd rather be debating, but unfortunately they're not here at the moment.

Like you, I'm unimpressed with people who are unwilling to acknowledge bare facts. For present purposes, the bare fact is that many combo and flipper discs have worked just fine. Does this mean the new Blu-ray flippers will be reliable? I have no idea. But neither does anyone else know whether they'll be a "disaster", as the OP predicts.

I still would like to know where you think your example leads. You've had some DVDs go bad -- so does that mean everyone should stop buying DVDs?[/QUOTE]

 

[Michael Reuben]

Originally Posted by Jeff Ulmer
There were lots of people who denied laser rot and I'm sure there are thousands of people who haven't had, or haven't discovered, their DVDs fail (yet) who believe nothing can go wrong

Clearly those are the people you'd rather be debating, but there are none of them here at the moment.

Like you, I'm unimpressed with those who are unwilling to acknowledge bare facts. For present purposes, the bare fact is that many combo and flipper discs have worked just fine. Does this mean the new Blu-ray flippers will be reliable? I have no idea. But neither does anyone else know whether they'll be a "disaster", as the OP predicts.

I still would like to know where you think your example leads. You've had some DVDs go bad -- so does that mean everyone should stop buying DVDs?[/QUOTE]

 

[John Alderson]

I don't see the big deal, honestly. Why would they not work? Is the player going to somehow know there's a DVD on the other side instead of a label and not play the disc because it's offended? None of my old DVD flippers ever failed.

I don't display my discs outside of their cases so the lack of a label doesn't bug me, and I always hold them by the edges anyway so I'm not going to get fingerprints on them... (and if you don't hold them by the edges you get fingerprints on the playable side, flipper or no.)

 

[ATimson]

Originally Posted by John Alderson

I don't see the big deal, honestly. Why would they not work? Is the player going to somehow know there's a DVD on the other side instead of a label and not play the disc because it's offended?

Well, there's two main avenues of problem. The first is that, depending on how tolerant the player is, it's possible that these discs might be too thick for them to play. (That one is less likely.)

The bigger concern here, as I understand it, is that these discs will start to see bonding problems later down the road--that the layers come apart or are contaminated by the "glue", and become unplayable.

 

[Felix Martinez]

Originally Posted by CraigF

...DualDisc, from what I can see from the ones I have, and from what I can remember, was never allowed to have either the DVD or CD logos. They could only say they played in CD and DVD players.

They couldn't even say that. DualDisc met the DVD spec but did not meet the Red Book CD spec. These hybrid discs did not play in any slot-loading (i.e. car) player I tested them on when I was reviewing discs.

Also, while some manufacturers went public with warnings, off the record I was told that the additional (albeit miniscule) weight of the DualDiscs were outside the spec for existing player transports, so playability issues and actual hardware damage *over time* was possible.

I'm sorry, but while I understand the perception that some of us are "overreacting" or jumping the gun, until Panasonic, Sony, Oppo, et al say these things are within spec for their Blu players *and* DVD player manufacturers say the same for the DVD side, I will be skeptical.

I'm awaiting to hear back from several hardware manufacturers.

If someone can provide a compelling argument that this new format/hybrid will add something of value previously unattainable in the same package without the risk of player issues, I'm all ears and eyes.

If the studios don't believe 100% in Blu-ray and/or want to reduce SKUs, throw a good 'ol DVD in the package. Why reinvent the disc?

 

[Jim_K]

The only discs I ever had problems with over the past 12 years were on DVD-18's or HD DVD Combo's so I'm not happy about this. If I had to guess the failure rate for me was about 30% of those types of discs.

Now if there happens to be a film I really want to own and this "flipper" is the only option available I probably won't flat out refuse to buy, but if I have any problems I'm going to make a lot of noise about it.

 

[ATimson]

Originally Posted by Felix Martinez

If the studios don't believe 100% in Blu-ray and/or want to reduce SKUs, throw a good 'ol DVD in the package. Why reinvent the disc?

Because this way you can't sell/give away your unwanted disc to a friend or family member with only SD; if both of you want it, that's two sales at the register instead of one.

 

[TonyD]

I don't like this force feeding option of the dual disc.

Make all versions available.
an only blu-ray version
a dual disc version
a dvd version.

Then I and everyone else can buy the one they want.

 

[Felix Martinez]

Originally Posted by ATimson


Because this way you can't sell/give away your unwanted disc to a friend or family member with only SD; if both of you want it, that's two sales at the register instead of one.

With the amount of DVDs in print, that's a lot of catching up to do.

 

[CraigF]

Originally Posted by Felix Martinez ; many BDs do not play in many BD players even though they are legally called BDs.

That is interesting what you said about the weight. I didn't know about that, and the same thing may apply to the new combo BD/DVD. This may be of concern because IME (this is just for me remember) it is the spindle motor failing that has been the downfall of my DVD players (NOT the lasers etc.). I guess extra medium weight would not help this, though I don't know exactly how the motor/spindle are connected in BD players.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by Felix Martinez




They couldn't even say that. DualDisc met the DVD spec but did not meet the Red Book CD spec. These hybrid discs did not play in any slot-loading (i.e. car) player I tested them on when I was reviewing discs.

Also, while some manufacturers went public with warnings, off the record I was told that the additional (albeit miniscule) weight of the DualDiscs were outside the spec for existing player transports, so playability issues and actual hardware damage *over time* was possible.

I'm sorry, but while I understand the perception that some of us are "overreacting" or jumping the gun, until Panasonic, Sony, Oppo, et al say these things are within spec for their Blu players *and* DVD player manufacturers say the same for the DVD side, I will be skeptical.

Blu ray has added many "features" to discs that are NOT compatible with 1st and 2nd generation players, making them unplayable for people who own those players. Does this mean you won't buy blu ray at all? This seems to be the logic you are suggesting.



Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by TonyD

I don't like this force feeding option of the dual disc.

Make all versions available.
an only blu-ray version
a dual disc version
a dvd version.

Then I and everyone else can buy the one they want.

I don't agree. I think the idea here was to get everyone buying blu ray. Someone buys the DVD, they have the bluray also and they can charge more for both. Getting the price of DVDs back where they wanted them.

The studios had hoped that blu-ray would replace DVD at a higher price point. They were not happy at all with DVD being used as a loss leader by the likes of Walmart and Target. However now it might be a moot point as Walmart and Target are now both using blu-ray as a loss leader, something the studios had hoped to avoid.

Doug

 

[TonyD]

Don't agree with what.
That every version should be sold or that you don't want every version to be available.

If they want everyone to just buy blu, then start with exclusive to blu releases.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Just for the record, I fully expect at least some of my BRs to fail simply due to the data density and tolerances that are required to read it. I expect others to fail due to faulty manufacturing, either delamination or contamination of the bonding agents. This is one reason why I'm sticking to purchases under $10 for BRs other than specific titles I know I'm going to get my money out of.

Obviously not ALL combo discs have failed, but neither can it be stated as fact that none have or won't in the future. My point is and was that adding more complexity to the manufacturing process will inevitably lead to more defects, and therefore keeping things simpler is a more prudent approach.

Ban flippers!

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by TonyD

Don't agree with what.
That every version should be sold or that you don't want every version to be available.

If they want everyone to just buy blu, then start with exclusive to blu releases.

Its not simply that they want everyone to buy blu-ray, they want to bring up the price of DVD also. Its fairly clear at this point that blu-ray is not going to replace DVD as they had hoped. Add to that the fact that the last few years have been a disaster for the studios as far as DVD sales go. They want to inch up the price to increase profits.

Doug

 

[CraigF]

I wonder how these combos will stand up to the slot-loading PS3? A pretty common BD player, and I'll hazard a guess popular among the Bourne fim "demographic". The thing about slot-loaders is they can sometimes be a bit rough on the "top" surface of a disc. This would be the DVD side, the less durable side, for anybody with a PS3 since hopefully they'd choose to play the BD side. I expect the combo BD/DVD would be somewhat thicker as regular BDs "look" thicker to me than even DVD-18s (I haven't measured).

 

[Felix Martinez]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce




Blu ray has added many "features" to discs that are NOT compatible with 1st and 2nd generation players, making them unplayable for people who own those players. Does this mean you won't buy blu ray at all? This seems to be the logic you are suggesting.



Doug

I didn't buy 1st and 2nd gen players that had compatibility issues - you may recall that was one of the big criticisms of the format. This stuff should be behind us. At least until 3D Blu-ray...

 

[Felix Martinez]

Originally Posted by CraigF ; many BDs do not play in many BD players even though they are legally called BDs.

That is interesting what you said about the weight. I didn't know about that, and the same thing may apply to the new combo BD/DVD. This may be of concern because IME (this is just for me remember) it is the spindle motor failing that has been the downfall of my DVD players (NOT the lasers etc.). I guess extra medium weight would not help this, though I don't know exactly how the motor/spindle are connected in BD players.

If memory serves, BD media weighs a bit more than DVD, so leaving BD players aside for a moment, I'm curious about these BD-59s (i.e. playing the DVD side) on DVD hardware, specifically slot loading/mobile units and laptops with DVD drives.

 

[Felix Martinez]

Oppo just replied that as of today, they have not rec'd the discs from Universal so they "cannot comment on any possible media compatibility issues which may occur."

Originally Posted by Felix Martinez

I'm awaiting to hear back from several hardware manufacturers.