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Star Trek Enterprise and Braga comments (1 Viewer)

andrew markworthy

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An open letter to hardline Star Trek fans (and I'm sure it applies to no-one here).

Did continuity bother Shakespeare when he was writing his plays (especially the history plays)? Nope.

So why should a should a show that won't be remembered in 50 years have to have more exacting standards? It's meant to be entertainment, guys. If you've got the energy to nitpick over matters that could only be understood by watching these programmes *way* too many times, try spending all that intellect and enthusiasm on something useful (e.g. start by going out into the sunlight or talking with people other than other Star Trek fans) instead of strengthening your Dweeb credentials.
 

Mikel_Cooperman

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Although I can't back this up, it does seem like some fans are rooting for this show to fail, which is the wrong attitude,
I Love Trek (when it's good) but it hasnt been. Give us something to CARE about. don't keep bouncing us around with unconnected 36 minute snippets of a universe. Face it, if you want our devotion (and attention) you HAVE TO EARN IT BY GIVING YOUR BEST!!!! I've been a Star Trek Fan all of my life. Now, I don't really care.
I am not going to just watch it anymore because it's Trek or because I hope it to get better (like Voyager).
There learning curve is over.
Ive seen many quotes from Ron Moore who used to write for TNG and DS9 and then went onto Voyager (until Braga forced him out)and he has said the powers that be never cared about continuity or story arcs because they thought that it would be too hard for fans to follow (one of the reasons he left). These are the same people in charge of Enterprise mind you.

That says allot about what they think of the fans.
Now they are trying story arcs but look who they are going to be written by.

An exerpt from the interview mentioned above is here:

It maybe 3 years-old, but Ron Moore's take on Voyager's lack of continuity could easily be applied to Enterprise:


"The continuity of the show is completely haphazard. It’s haphazard by design. It’s not like they are trying desperately to maintain continuity of the show. They don’t care, and they’ll tell you flat out that they don’t care. Well, that is misreading the core audience. The Star Trek, hardcore audience loves continuity; they love accumulating data on these ships. They love knitting together all the little pieces, and compiling lists, and doing trivia. That’s been a staple of the Star Trek culture from the get-go. People really love the details. They love the fact that the details all add up and make one mosaic, and that the universe holds together. When you don’t give a sh1t, you’re telling the audience: don’t bother. Don’t bother to really learn this stuff, because it’s not going to matter next week, anything that happened this week." The writer-producers of Voyager maintain that they don’t want continuity, so people can watch the shows out of order, for example, now in five-nights-a-week syndication. Says Moore, "I’ve just never believed that argument, because it seems to me that you’re just underestimating the intelligence of the audience. You’re just saying the audience is a bunch of idiots.
 

Jason Seaver

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(e.g. start by going out into the sunlight or talking with people other than other Star Trek fans) instead of strengthening your Dweeb credentials.
That's just needlessly insulting and presumptuous.

Look, if you want to argue that Enterprise is really good, fine, go ahead. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. But don't give me "lower your standards" or "it's stupid to care", OK? I absolutely will not do the first and you can apply the second to almost anything.
 

andrew markworthy

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We're having this discussion on a forum dedicated to a decidedly non-useful pursuit (Home Theater). Mocking another's hobby as unimportant in such an environment is kind of silly.
Home Theater(or Theatre, even) is not necessarily non-useful. It's recreation. However, there is a clear distinction between recreation and treating recreation like work. Something I find deeply dispiriting is that the tiniest flaw in Star Wars or Star Trek will result in a plethora of responses, where the failings of some producer or other will be treated like it's a war crime. Trouble is, whenever anyone who isn't a fanatic on the subject says 'hang on, guys, isn't this all a bit too serious?' we instantly get treated to a long patronising lecture on how we don't see the point, usually with insinuations that we shouldn't butt in.

Oh I give up - treat Star Trek like it's a work of profound genius, for all I care.
 

Jason Seaver

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Trouble is, whenever anyone who isn't a fanatic on the subject says 'hang on, guys, isn't this all a bit too serious?' we instantly get treated to a long patronising lecture on how we don't see the point, usually with insinuations that we shouldn't butt in.
Well, if you're not insulting ("go out and get some sun and stop being such dweebs")... I'm not going to say the enthusiasts are always civil, but being patronizing goes both ways.

And, really, shouldn't we have high expectations for what we do for entertainment? That's my free time, stuff I don't have to do to survive, and I in fact spend a good chunk of my week earning the money to do it instead of something else. I want my entertainment to be the best it can be, which Enterprise clearly isn't.
 

Jeff Kleist

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I honestly wonder, if we somehow, mystically got 1 million snail mail letters to Paramount, that they'd see things our way.
 

Kwang Suh

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An open letter to hardline Star Trek fans (and I'm sure it applies to no-one here).

Did continuity bother Shakespeare when he was writing his plays (especially the history plays)? Nope.

So why should a should a show that won't be remembered in 50 years have to have more exacting standards? It's meant to be entertainment, guys. If you've got the energy to nitpick over matters that could only be understood by watching these programmes *way* too many times, try spending all that intellect and enthusiasm on something useful (e.g. start by going out into the sunlight or talking with people other than other Star Trek fans) instead of strengthening your Dweeb credentials.
Threadcrap.
 

Nelson Au

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I felt I needed to say this, I didn't start this thread with the idea of it turning into an antagonistic one. Apologies for that.

It's my fault for using such a provocative story to refer to.

I hoped it could be a possibly positive one. I know many have strong feelings for our once much admired Trek franchise. And there's a lot of cynicism towards it now.

On the positive side, in looking at the materials released for the upcoming season, it does look like it could be exciting. Maybe all the attention the series creators are getting will force them to work harder or try new things.

It's a few weeks from the premier, I look forward to see if they pull it off or not.

Nelson
 

Jack Briggs

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Guys, please. I've never closed a Star Trek thread before and don't want to do so now.

Bear in mind this: Here at HTF and at boards dedicated to Star Trek-related matters, the franchise's staunchest, most militantly serious fans are Enterprise's harshest, most unrelenting critics. It's a matter of wanting to take a legacy property to the highest heights, for Star Trek to recapture the glory that faded so rapidly after DS9 wrapped.

The two in charge have instead opted for the easy way out and to continue with their by-the-numbers ways (my goodness, the NX-01's crew has been to Risa already, not to mention having encountered the Ferengi and the Borg). Braga and Berman simply don't care, and they have expressed contempt for the core fanbase that has kept them afloat.

Talk about PR.

As for me, I don't check in with threads I otherwise wouldn't find interesting unless I have to for the obvious reasons.

Star Trek fans take this franchise seriously. They want the best for it and are sorely disappointed when they see clear apathy (and some hostility) at the top — only to see that said top continues to express puzzlement over falling ratings and abysmal box-office numbers.

So, let's respect that. If that's not possible, then eschew these threads.

Thanks.
 

Kwang Suh

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Nope - legitimate comment. Learn to live with it.
No, actually, you should learn with the fact that there are lots of people out there that actually give a shit about Star Trek, and want to talk about it with other people that give a shit about Star Trek.

If you don't give a shit about Star Trek, stay out of the thread. I don't give a shit about Buffy, and I think it's a stupid show, but you don't see me in their threads, now do you?

Sorry about that Jack.
 

Richard Paul

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The majority of Star Trek fans are no longer watching Enterprise and would therefore want the show to fail. I would personally love for Enterprise to fail along with Berman and Braga getting fired. The problem I have with them isn't just there view toward the continuity of Star Trek but also the fact that the episodes of Enterprise are poor to average in quality. What I fear will happen is that if Enterprise fails Berman and Braga may be given control over the next Star Trek series. If that does happen then Star Trek may be off the air for 20+ years since Paramount may think that people have lost interest in it.
 

Jeff Kleist

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They already think "Our fanbase has shrunk"

We need a Write-in the likes of which has never been seen since the ORIGINAL Save Star Trek campaign

They need to receive tens of thousands of letters telling them why they fail. They need their phone switchboard clogged ala Willy Wonka Widescreen. There has to be rumbles that they can feel on the 57th floor, otherwise they just chalk it up to whining fanboys
 

Richard_D_Ramirez

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I agree, Jeff. Mass "physical" write-ins are what is needed. Online petitions such as this can be easily ignored by the studio, and electronic emails can be shut down.

Rabid fanboy letters will be immediately trashed, but if we maintain our mailings civil, they will be taken seriously.

It will also help if a common, recurring, date is used for everyone to send their mailing. Mass mailings sent during a close time frame will be more noticed than mailings sparsely spread.

Anyone have Paramount's mail addy?

8^B
 

Jack Briggs

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When John and Bjo Trimble commenced their successful letter-writing campaign at the end of TOS's second season it was a far less media-saturated age. I'm not sure where a letter-writing campaign would go today, especially given Berman and Braga's apathy toward what the "fans" think.
 

Rex Bachmann

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Mr. Seaver has already covered these pretty well, but I can't resist sticking in my five cents' worth.


Andrew Markworthy wrote (post #21):

I think the point is that it's not being treated like a "work" of genius, or of any other kind, by its current producers. As others have said, there is a serious audience that appreciates the world of Star Trek, even if some of them cannot respect a specific episode or a specific series under that name. You seem to harbor the same attitude as the Hollywood producers at whom all this vituperation (most of it deserved, even if a minority of it is admittedly disproportionate at times) is directed: it's just "junk" you view for an hour's entertainment then you just forget it ever existed. That's pure Hollywood mogul/marketeer thinking, the entertainment industry's version of throw-away consumer capitalism. Would Shakespeare have treated his audience with such open contempt, and, if he had, would his plays---which were, after all, intended as contemporary for-hire entertainment---have survived for us to know about them?

Some of this is going to sound silly, but, for better or worse, it's true: however "great" Shakespeare's work may be in its own right---and who decides that?---it is held societally to be so because in large part we are inculcated to believe it is so. Familiarity with and admiration of it is one of the highest badges of enculturation for an Anglophone, and usually Anglophile, elite. And that's not meant as a "knock" against any group or person. It is a fact that all (large) human societies have elites and those elites measure their worth by some criteria, usually cultural, and impose their standards on those over whom they rule and reign. Shakespeare is for the Anglo-American elite the standard against which all other "lit'rature" and "cultured education" is to be measured. (Ask the "French" captain, Jean-Luc Picard.) And, while that's okay to a point, I'm afraid to tell you that, although I've studied Shakespeare, I really respect, and occasionally admire, Shakespeare, I can't and won't get passionate about Shakespeare. And I dare say most people in the English-speaking world won't either (even the "edumacated" among them).

We do get excited about "literature" that's made for us, whether it's the "tv-generation" stuff (like Star Trek) or movie-screen stuff (like Star Wars), which has been made for audiences, not of the pre-industrial 16th century, but for people---mostly young people---steeped in an undeniably electronic social and physical environment who look toward an expansion of mankind's horizons beyond its traditional limits and, yep,---hoky as it sounds---that means toward the stars. (This is not meant to say that that "literature" should not meet age-old requirements of satisying human interest: realistic characterization, good acting, good writing or dramatization, etc., nor to say that any of these new forms in filmed or digital entertainment always meet those requirements. And, in fact, much of your complaint seems to have to do with our plaints in the various Star Trek threads that they don't, in fact, meet those requirements. And finally, yes, since this isn't the 16th century, where they still executed people for witchcraft or devil possession, many of us do like them to make the technical and/or scientific details at least seem plausible and realistic. Don't put a hex on us, m'lord. It's supposed to be science fiction!)

If all this offends your sense of propriety and proportion, you probably shouldn't be here on these boards (or any "science-fiction" venue, for that matter), as much as I hate to say it.


"Cheat us, shall we not bitch and moan?" [bitch-moan! bitch-moan! bitch-moan!]
"Ignore us, shall we not tune out?"
 

Mikel_Cooperman

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it all comes down to, if they dont care, why should we?
After watching much of Season 3 of B5 for the first time on DVD, its easy to see some thought went into the scripts for that show and it shows on screen. Compelling Television!!

Thats all I want for Trek again.
 

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