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Stanley Kubrick is overrated (1 Viewer)

Josh Steinberg

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I remember when EWS came out, I wasn't even old enough to see an R rated movie without a parent! I begged my dad (and finally got him to agree) to leave work wicked early that Friday so I could see the very first showing at my local theater. (Whether or not I'd be allowed to see it was never in question.) I also remember at the time people being disappointed that it wasn't some sort of X rated porno flick with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman going at it for two hours.

Janet Maslin writing in the New York Times wrote a beautiful review of the film that I really think captured what it was about. (Rumor has it that she was forced out of her job there as head critic at least in part over that review.) You can still find it on the New York Times website, and it's well-worth reading, regardless of what your opinion of the film is.

It was the first Stanley Kubrick movie I had waited for; Full Metal Jacket had come out so many years before that it was before I was conscious of film in that way. So after seeing 2001 and then every other Kubrick film, EWS was one I waited years for, always hearing rumors, never quite believing any of the gossip, anticipating what might follow. Kubrick's death was a major blow, but the one bit of silver lining was that the film was finished, or close enough to finished that it could be shown. I have no doubt that had Kubrick not died right then, he would have fine tuned it up until the very last minute, but I don't think it would have been much different. Maybe a shorter or longer shot here or there, a different take or a cut in a different place, but I can't imagine any substantial changes being made.

The film blew me away. A serious film made for thinking adults about sexuality, never once giggling at its own subject matter. This came out around the same time American Pie did, and I remember thinking even then that there was something wrong with a ratings system that would declare both films "R", essentially saying that the content and appropriateness of said content and suggested audience should be the same. The digital figures didn't make the film any more or less appropriate, it just made a mockery of the MPAA. When I finally saw a version of the scene without the figures, I was shocked -- not at what they were hiding, but that the MPAA could be so petty. Anyhow, I digress.

Kubrick's brilliant use of color and texture, exaggerated lighting, getting such a grainy look (one that hasn't been faithfully reproduced on DVD, in either the original release or the new special edition)... what a mood it set. (To see this film without the beautifully pronounced grain structure prominent in the theatrical release is almost as bad as watching 2001 on video.) The film weaves in and out like a dream, something that goes between daydream and nightmare and back again, something that sought to examine what (to steal from a U2 song) is the mysterious distance between a man and a woman. As I've grown older and experienced more of what life has to offer, my appreciation for the film has only grown. It's Kubrick's most seductive work for sure, probably among his least understood, and the only movie that I actually own a 35mm trailer for. (Not that that has anything to do with anything.) Plain and simple, it's a masterpiece. This is a beautiful, delicate film, where every bit of lighting, use of color, light and shadow and darkness, impacts my emotions as much as the plot or the acting. That's not to say that those things are lacking, but to point out how brilliantly Kubrick has mastered his craft.

Like most other Kubrick films, I wish I could see this again for the first time. 2001 is and probably always will be my favorite, but EWS may very well be a close second. For me at least, it certainly has earned a place in the conversation, along with Dr. Strangelove. It's not a film I watch very often (it's long, to begin with, I wouldn't cut a thing but you don't always have 160 minutes), but when I do, it blows me away each and every time.

Besides, how many other movies can you think of where Tom Cruise is chased down an empty New York City street by a single piano note? :)
 

Jefferson Morris

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Josh,

Your post definitely makes me want to revisit this film. I'm still hoping my experience will go from one of admiration to genuine enjoyment (There we go again, blaming ourselves instead of Stan the Man.).

I will say I love the ending. Ending it with a punchline underscores the entire film as a kind of narrative joke on the viewer. But of course EWS is also about the things you mentioned, including the gulf between men and women, and male sexuality - always wanting what we don't have, even when what we have - i.e., Nicole Kidman - is pretty amazing.

And I'll also say that I think Tom Cruise gives his best performance here, acting against type. It was an inspired choice by Kubrick, casting the most charismatic, sexually confident male star in Hollywood as a frustrated idiot who can't seem to get any strange.

--Jefferson Morris
 

Haggai

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I remember that too; I couldn't believe anyone would be so dumb as to believe those rumors. I knew Kubrick's movies pretty well by that point, so the idea that he would do something that was wall-to-wall SEX SEX FUCKING SEX PORNO SEX SEX, which was what all the buzz seemed to be coming down to, just seemed completely ludicrous to me.

The "Life in Pictures" doc indicates that it wasn't the first time that happened with a Kubrick movie: Richard Schickel (I think, I'm pretty sure it was him) says that Barry Lyndon was rumored for the longest time to be a Tom Jones-style fun-filled romp through the 18th century (Tom Jones as in the Oscar-winning British movie from '63), and when it didn't really turn out to be like that at all, there was a lot of backlash. I guess it largely came down to Kubrick's famous (or infamous, as far as most of the press was concerned) distaste for personal involvement with almost any sort of publicity.
 

Holadem

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I am one of the whippersnappers swallowed up in the EWS pre-release hype. I was in college, went to see it opening day, and it while turned to be different from what I expected (see Haggai’s post), it was nothing like I had ever experienced. The impact the film had on me pretty much mirrors that of the protagonist: EWS opened my eyes to a whole new world of film experience. In many respect, it is the first art film I really watched. Immediately after, I knew I wanted to see more films that engaged me in that fashion. So EWS will always be special here.

Looking back, the pre-release hype was pretty absurd. There must be many Kubrick fans out there that are blind from having rolled their eyes so much they fell out of their sockets.

But it brought me into the fold, so it couldn’t have been completely bad :P

--
H
 

Haggai

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Heh, I'm glad you were assimilated into the Kubrick/art film Borg by EWS, Holadem. To be more clear, I should have said that at the time, I couldn't believe anyone who was as familiar with Kubrick's movies as I was could have bought into all that hype about the sex. I include in that category film journalists who clearly should have known better than to fall for nonsense like that, as well as a few people I knew who (wrongly) thought of themselves as being knowledgeable Kubrick fans. I went in expecting a Kubrick movie, not a big-budget porno, so I enjoyed it for what it was and particularly revelled in scenes like the "inquisition" at the masked party (I remember leaving the theater and saying to the people I saw it with "now THAT'S what I expect from a Kubrick movie," with respect to that specific sequence). I don't think it's one of his best movies, but I do think it's very good.

H, I'm guessing you didn't know Kubrick's movies very well at the time of EWS, if at all? I don't just mean Strangelove, Shining, or even 2001 or Clockwork Orange, but everything he'd done since about The Killing. I had already seen all of his features from Killer's Kiss through Full Metal Jacket when EWS was released.
 

Holadem

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You are correct -- never heard of Kubrick before then. I essentially went 'cause we were all gonna watch Cruise fuck his real wife (Kidman!) onscreen for two hours :D. (and as a new film enthusiast, I was genuinely curious about this director; I had to see what the hype was about).

I had seen The Shining in high school and hated every second of it -- it was a butchery of one of my then favorite books. I watched it at home with 2 friends (book fans as well) and we all sat there for two hours looking like WTF. If I had known at the time EWS was released that it was the same director, I might not have bothered. (I've since softened up on that matter).

I think I might have seen A Clockwork Orange before as well. Some self-described film expert then-friend summarized the film like so: "This kid breaks into a home and rapes and kills a woman. Years later, as it happens, the kid finds himself in a desperate position of needing the help of his victims husband". Ta da dum... unlike EWS, I was left spectacularly unimpressed.

Again, I didn't make the connection before EWS. Someone during the whole pre-release shebang, the names of the films didn't stick.

(As an aside, the theater in which I saw EWS added to the experience. The room and seat were a velvetty red. The whole thing was just surreal.)

I like Kubrick. He is not my favorite director, but he is certainly in a class of his own (I can't think of anyone who makes movies like that). 2001 gets better every time I see it. As a work of art, it transcends the medium. Yet like many, I find it's entertainment value limited. Paths of Glory was just stunning. These and EWS would be my favs. Full Metal jacket was brilliant in parts, but hasn't aged well in my mind. Barry Lyndon was good but it's status as a great film puzzles me. I like A Clockwork Orange a lot better than the first time. I have enough distance from the novel to enjoy The Shining as a good, but flawed horror flick. Dr Stangelove just didn't work for me (mostly because of the slapstick nonsense).

--
H
 

Michael Elliott

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Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean we can't see a point in the others argument. I understand why some hate 2001 with a passion but I've yet to read a review that's valid as to why this is a poorly made film.
 

Michael Elliott

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I personally think EWS is Kubrick's third best film behind A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and THE SHINING. Regarding the "cold" aspect, I'm sure many would call all three of these films very cold but I think if they look deeper then they'd find a certain kind of love running through all of these characters. It's just that they're in an ugly world with ugly themes and that "love" isn't gushing all over the place. The scene in THE SHINING, which never gets talked about is when Nicholson's character sits his son on his lap and even though he's slipping into a dangerous mode, there's something bittersweet about their conversation. Even the ugly scene of Nicholson having the nightmare at the desk shows that he was scared of actually hurting the two of them.

I could name countless scenes in EWS that has these moments but I've gotta get back to something else right now.
 

Colin Jacobson

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I don't think of Kubrick as "cold" - I think of him as objective. That's one thing I like about Kubrick's better works: they allow us to make up our own minds and don't shove themselves down our throats.

But I do agree he's over-rated. The only Kubrick film I really, really like is "Clockwork" - it's dead-on brilliant. "Paths of Glory" borders on brilliance. I've grown to admire "2001" over the years - I'll never truly LIKE it, but I can very much respect it. "Lolita" and "Lyndon" are also very good, and I think I liked the early flicks too - can't remember and I'm too lazy to look up my reviews! :D

I DO know that after "Lyndon", Kubrick is largely a waste to me. "Shining" is too long and not all that great - it's decent but DEFINITELY over-rated. "FMJ" is a dud, and "EWS" is dull.

And as for "Strangelove"... I may think that's the most over-rated film ever. Where others see cleverness and insight I see obvipus and lame. Not for one second do I think that flick deserves all the love it gets.

So yes, I believe Kubrick is over-rated, but he sure had a lot of good moments...
 

Kirk Tsai

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Although I do not worship him, and I do think he gets worshiped as Richard Wagner does by his most hardcore fans, I think his enduring power is that his films have a lot to chew on. Of his feature films, I have not seen The Shining and Killer's Kiss; in all the films I have seen, even those I did not fall in love with, such as FMJ and Clockwork, I found quite a lot to think about after watching the movie. Lydon and Eyes I could watch quite often, as I find them fascinating, even if they are not my favorites such as Paths of Glory.

I also concur with the OP's comment on James Mason's performance in Lolita. Jeremy Irons has nothing on Mr. Mason.

I look forward to Jack's comments. :)
 

Patrick McCart

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I haven't seen his three UA features yet and my memories of Spartacus and Lolita are a bit rusty... it's been at least 5-6 years since I've seen them. So, I can't put down much of an opinion on the entirety of his work.

Except for Full Metal Jacket, the rest of the films are perfect in my eyes. FMJ is just a bit too much for me. What I enjoy the most is the repeat viewing aspect. There's always something new, even if it's my 5th or 6th time. Eyes Wide Shut, especially. The first time, I sort of liked it, but it was sloooow. The second time, I "got" it. The third time, this time with an audience and at a 35mm screening, I realized how great of a film it was. Kubrick's films are quite easy to understand, but he makes you pay attention in order to do so. 2001 isn't really an unpproachable enigma.

When I hear people throw around "overrated" it usually means they haven't seen many films by Kubrick, didn't understand them, or are bored enough to start arguments over a director. Or worse, calling 2001 a "poorly made" film. 2001 may be too epic, relatively slow, or static, but if its poorly made... I'd really hate to think of what an Ed Wood feature would be in comparison.
 

Kevin M

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Forgive me for being slow but what "commentary" are you talking about...social or literal? I ask because I have never heard of any of the DVD releases of 2001 have an actual commentary track from anyone.

DOH! I hadn't realized that the 2 disker SE had been released yet! Never mind.
htf_images_smilies_blush.gif
 

Joe Karlosi

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I personally think it's a good film and there is a lot in it to interest me, but if many viewers find it completely dull and boring and they practically want to shoot themselves while enduring it (which seems to be the case for MANY others) then they have every valid right to say they don't feel it's a well-made film. A well done movie should never bore the hell out of you.
 

Eric Ten

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Although Kubrick has made some of my favorite films and I feel he stands apart from most filmakers, he is not above a great deal of criticism for full metal jacket or eyes wide shut which was not a very good film imo.So
I am gonna start a "NIC ROEG IS UNDERRATED" thread.
 

Douglas R

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I agree. He peaked around the time of 2001, Clockwork Orange and Barry Lyndon but it was all downhill after that, taking longer and longer to develop projects and coming up with disappointments (a bit like David Lean).
 

TonyD

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you need to get over yourself on that one.

an opinion is only wrong if it isnt the same as yours?

i dont like many of Kubrick's films especially the Shining and 2001 just doesnt do anything for me.

when i was younger and discovering movies i watched 2001.
after it was over all i could say was, Huh?

things mentioned in this thread such as the first weapon and being bored by space travel and the personality of Hal being human like, then its death, are
excellent points and i agree.

but beyond that and during the end sequence with all the lights and the giant
baby, i dont see how anyone knew what that was all about the first time through.

i immediately read the book as soon as i finished the movie and first ting i said when i was done was "oh, that's what happened".

Full Metal is brillaint during boot camp, but evrything after that is just another regular old war film.

EWS is just an odd film for me.
the film is a bit mesmerizing, if i start watching it i cant turn it off, it keeps me there the entire time.
i dont even think i like the film.
just like watching it, the nudity is part of that but it isn't the whole thing keeping me there.

i think Spartacus is his best.
the whole thing with the blacklist, didnt trumball write the script.
and wasnt he a blacklisted writer at the time.
 

Travis Brashear

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I'll respond with an adage from noted science-fiction author and all around disturber of the peace: ""You are not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your informed opinion".

Speaking of getting over oneself, what the story with the size 24 font?
 

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