Speaker Wire....BiWire vs. Single Wire?? (1 Viewer)

[Chu Gai]

Well just check out the bottom of this link http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=36013 which 'surprisingly' also talked about Paradigms.

I'm a little unclear what you're getting at Jon_S. If we double up on 12 gauge runs we have an effective run of 9 gauge. Now let's say we do that where both ends of the runs are connected to the binding posts of the receiver somehow while the other ends go to each set of binding terminals on the speakers. If we leave the plate or whatever you've got back there in place then this is the same as a normal connection. If we remove that plate we have biwired.

Now it's going to take a little effort and time to run something like 10 trials. It'll take even more time if you have each of your friends be the listener. The main reason I recommend that people try it is that you really don't have to level match (an important criteria in audible difference testing) because the overall gauge is the same so you don't have to go out and get a multimeter or burn any disks with test tones. What I'm figuring is that if that it'll give you some appreciation for science and depending upon your results, maybe you'll start looking at a lot of what manufacturers and especially reviewers say with a grain of salt.

 

[Mike_Skeway]

If you double up on 12 AWG, you would get 9 AWG.

 

[Pete H]

The B&W manual for my speakers state:

"Bi-wiring is the preferred method of connection and involves the use of separate cables from the amplifier to each pair of terminals. The separation of the signal paths improves the resolution of low-level detail and allows the user to optimise the type of cable to the frequency range of use."

I'm pretty sure B&W doesn't own a cable company so I doubt they are making a falicious statment to line somebody elses pocket. I also doubt they would make such a clear statment, or any statement, if they thought bi-wiring their speakers did not improve the sound. Having used my speakers both ways I think they have it about right. It is preferred but don't look for a big difference.

I suggest people start by listening to their speaker manufacturer and experiment from there. One additional comment, I highly recommend Robert Harley's books.

 

[Chu Gai]

Fair enough position from B&W, so what specifically do they recommend?

 

[Andrew Testa]

Pete,

Always remember that manufacturers of ANY product, not just audio, pander to their target audience. If Acme knows that more coyotes will buy their rocket-powered roller skates if they market them as "specifically designed for outmaneuvering roadrunners!" then you can be sure that will be emblazoned on the box, whether it's true or not. An audio manufacturer will kill themselves if they market a high dollar amp and claim that you can use zip cord and radio shack interconnects with no problem. They know their target audience would shun them like lepers. So just because their marketing advises biwiring confers no legitimacy on the practice. It's not lying or not understanding cable, it's just marketing.

Andy

 

[Jon_S]

But cables can be very expensive (in the high end). Doesn't it mean that you won't have as much to spend on speakers and might get a lower model?

 

[Marc H]

Another explanation for bi-wiring is on the Totem Acoustic website in their FAQ.
Interestingly they also discuss which terminals to use when single wiring and experimenting between them to see which tone one prefers. They recommend a diagonal connection for the best balance. Have a read here (scroll down to point 6):
Totem FAQ

 

[Andrew Testa]

Jon,

Not if they know their users. They wouldn't target those who put cost before quality, even if it's perceived quality. They know that there's more to the bottom line for the audiophile than money.

Marc,

That was probably put there so audiophiles who don't bi-wire can still feel like they're getting the best tweak out of the system. If you single wire, it makes not one bit of difference which posts you use. Saying the upper posts give a higer tone is sympathetic magic and nothing more.

Andy

 

[Jon_S]

Andrew, yeah, in theory, but people will spend as much as they can (unless they have more money than the know what to do with - small # of people).

 

[ScottCHI]

yeah. that baffled me.

 

[Andrew Testa]

Jon,

yes, they'll spend what they can, but on what they want, and the priorities may not be what someone else considers reasonable. I know someone who bought a tiny house in a poor neighborhood so she could continue to afford owning her own plane. Her motto was "if it doesn't have wings, It's not worth spending money on". Similarly, audiophiles will continue to live in small apartments while they spend $$$ on upgrades and cables. And manufacturers of audiophile gear know that people who identifiy with their brand will spend what is required to live up to that brand image, even if it involves doubling up on their expensive cables. It's the cost of being in the club. This is marketing, which has nothing to do with logic and finance, and everything to do with image and perception. I'm not saying B&Ws wrong to do it, since every other company does it. You just have to be aware of it and question why something is marketed the way it is, and why people trying to sell you something take the positions they do. You'll find it's almost never to inform you, but to make you buy their stuff.

Andy

 

[Jon_S]

Yeah, it's a strange elasticity of demand, I don't disagree with that. All I'm saying is that as a business they want to capture the highest amount of those dollars (or they should).

 

[TimMc]

Jon_S - the manufacturers (even Paradigm, etc.) most likely include the verbiage on bi-wiring because their extensive market research or test marketing or whatever has convinced them that in the long run that helps them maximize their sales. Maybe it just linked the phrase "bi-wire" with those who would pay that price for speakers - use the phrase and sell more units, that's all.

There's obviously a rather wide range of folks in the market, and very bluntly the ones buying B&W or Totem or more upscale/high-end stuff are more likely to have heard of bi-wiring than someone buying an all-KLH setup from BJs (Sorry - no offense intended. That's just a price point example - honest!). There is likely additional cache for your (expensive) product if you tender at least lip service to "exotic" stuff like bi-wiring. And the speaker manufacturers all know in their hearts that their customer is buying speakers first and cables after that - so if they buy to bi-wire they'll mostly buy to whatever they have left in the kitty.

Wiring to the diagonal posts? 'nuff said. (Where's Chester II when you need him?)

 

[Pete H]

Chu

B&W does not, and based on my effort, will not make speaker wire recommendations. They do suggest wires with an impedance under 0.1 ohm across all frequencies. That's all I can tell you.

Andrew

I don't believe is pandering to the psyche of potential customers with its bi-wire statement. In fact, the opposite is probably true. Wouldn't you, if you believed in bi-wiring, shy away from a speaker that needed bi-wiring to sound its best? Bi-wiring isn't a positive. It's a negative.

That said, I believe bi-wiring B&W speakers is a small improvement. It should be among the last improvement dollars spent on a system.

 

[Andrew Testa]

Pete,

I think I see where you're coming from. Pander was probably the wrong word to use; "conform with market perceptions" is a phrase that best suits. I firmly believe that anything a company writes about it's products is only there because they believe it will increase sales or maintain a loyal brand following. With a large company all literature comes from a marketing department, not the engineers. So if they suggest bi-wiring it's because they feel the association with the practice will cause more sales.

To answer your question, if I believed in biwiring I would shy away from speakers that DON'T allow biring, and would seek out those that encourage it. I would want to buy from a company that validated my beliefs. It doesn't really matter how significant the changes might be. If I believed it was a positive thing I would seek it out.

As to your belief, I completely agree with you that if you feel biwiring makes a small improvement then it should be a low priority improvement. Upgrade those things that make the biggest improvements first, and the small tweaks later if at all. That's a logical progression.

For myself, I don't see any advantage to biwiring, but I wouldn't snub speakers outfitted for it. I'd just keep the jumpers on and hook up a single set of RS Golds.

Since we started discussing marketing, here's an interesting link about a defined economic term for purchases of prestige items that was posted on HTT in a similar discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Andy

 

[PaulDA]

Just out of curiosity, do the sceptics among you feel the same about bi-amping as you do about bi-wiring, and why? This is a concept that is murky to me, at best.

P.S., my front and rears are bi-wire capable (though I don't run them that way) so I'm just wondering. Also, what would happen if I lost the jumpers? Probably a dumb question but I'm a history teacher, not a electrical engineer.

 

[ScottCHI]

bi-amping is a completely different thing. i don't think anyone here will dispute it's benefits. period.

if you lost the jumpers, you would use speaker wire, which is better than the jumpers, anyway.

 

[Jon_S]

Scott, I do agree. However, I would say that anyone bi-amping really needs to make sure that they're using the right amps at the right levels of power or they'll mess up the sound...so, yes, it can be great, but it could be worse if done incorrectly.

 

[Andrew Testa]

Paul,

No, there is a difference with bi-amping, and both Scott and Jon make good points. in a bi-amp situation the woofer can draw whatever it needs without effect on the mid or high pass sections. So you won't get tweeter problems if your woofer clips. Be aware however that in a passive bi-amp both amps are working on the same full-range signal. It's only at the passive crossovers that the signals are differentiated. So if the source sends a big low frequency pulse, the tweeter amp must allocate power to it even if it gets filtered out at the crossover. While I've never experimented with it, it seems that active bi-amping would give the best improvement over using a single amp. With active crossovers before the amps, the amps only work on the signals that the drivers require, provided that the crossovers are designed for the specific drivers used and not a generic drop-in. I've heard people claim superiority for both methods though, so until I can hear it I can't pass judgement.

Andy

 

[RobWil]

That's exactly what I have.....my Paradigms (slightly used) did not come with the jumpers. I made some really nice little jumpers, if I may say so myself

As far as bi-amping goes, I would think it would depend on your speakers sensitivity and the amps power. My Paradigms are around 90dB sensitivity and the current amp I'm
using is a 200+ wpc Phase Linear 400. I would seriously doubt if I would benefit from bi-amping. The amp hardly breaks a sweat as it is. Plus the damping factor on the amp is like a freakin' thousand:1 !