Speaker Wire....BiWire vs. Single Wire?? (1 Viewer)

[Chu Gai]

All the theories are rather a moot point unless one can either first establish that a reliable audible difference exists between biwiring vs. a single run of the same gauge wire or that it can somehow be shown on paper that the magnitudes of the improvements, be they distortion or whatever, fall into the area where they're liklihood of being heard is signficant. Neither exists.

 

[Philip>L]

I'm not suggesting that the topologies differ. I'm suggesting that regardless of where the signal is split to feed the separate drivers, that high frequency current does not travel down the low frequency line and vice-versa.

The crossover can have an effect on current flowing in the wire all the way up to the previous node (where the wire is split). This is true in ANY circuit, just like in the simple battery, switch, and lamp analogy. When the switch is open, it certainly affects how current flows upstream and downstream of itself. Likewise if I put a second bulb in parallel with the first, then the currents traveling in the nodes upstream and downstream of the two will be affected by the wattage of the bulb.

The only difference here is that we've now go two signals (and therefore two currents) traveling on the same wire.
So if we had a circuit with only a high frequency or only a low frequency signal being driven on it, but with the same setup, it could be shown that current will follow only one of the paths. Why should it be so different with a second, different frequency superimposed on it?

 

[Chu Gai]

Yes, neither exists...truly. No reliable audible proofs that would stand scrutiny and whenever calculated differences have been shown, they're of an inconsequential nature. Anecdotal evidence though abounds. If you've got something, bring it to the table. Now if you've got access to a set of speakers that are biwired, a couple of friends, and an afternoon, I'll give you a relatively easy way that you can determine if biwiring makes an audible difference. Of course, you'll have to rely on your ears and not your sight.

I think you need to clarify this as perhaps what I'm thinking is not what you're meaning. Consider the following link for an electrical analysis on Arny Krueger's website.
www.pcavtech.com/ techtalk/biwire/

 

[Andrew Testa]

Ah, so you believe this occurs in the single wire with jumper case as well? Unfortunately it does not happen that way. Your analogy with solving currrent values in a circuit does not apply to this scenario. A static solution to an LCR circuit behaves as you say, but the AC properties of amplitude, phase, and frequency do not. These values change at the component, not for the entire node that component is on. For example a tweeter with a single capacitor in parallel connected direct to the amp with no other drivers will have the full frequency output up to the capacitor. The capacitor shunts the lower frequency signal and the high frequency passes to the tweeter. The only upstream node to the cap is the amp binding posts. Now the impedance and therefore the current through this circuit will behave as in a classic LCR solution, but the frequency of the signal does not. The purpose of the cap is to shunt the low frequencies, so they must be present in the wire to be shunted. The cap doesn't prevent the frequencies from being output from the amp.

So in a parallel passive crossover, the frequency and phase changes only occur directly at the component. For them to work they must receive the full range signal. Therefore for each side of the split a full range signal must be sent so the crossover can filter out anything outside its passband. Remember that both crossovers are passing the same frequencies for several octave on either side of the crossover. The split in the signal has to be sending these same frequencies to both crossovers to allow this to happen.

Andy

 

[Chu Gai]

'Course, if you really believe something like the high frequency currents only travel on a particular wire (the skinny one, isn't that what they say?) then take that wire and hook it up to a 60 Hz AC line and let me know how it feels.

 

[Philip>L]

I am willing to concede (Chu's non-helpful, potentially dangerous comments nonwithstanding) that my explanation as to why bi-wiring makes a difference may not be correct.

However, I am not willing to concede that passive bi-wiring makes no difference at all in sound quality of high quality speakers.

There seem to be too many people who are more satisfied with bi-wiring than regular for it to be attributable only to placebo effect...

Once again, the bottom line is whether or not you can hear a difference. If you can, GREAT! If not, oh well.

 

[Andrew Testa]

The bottom line is really whether or not you enjoy your hobby. I don't presume to tell you how to enjoy yourself. If you want to bi-wire, it's fine by me. However,



If you want to continue to discuss this we can. The mechanisms of signal propagation at audio frequencies are well known, the biological mechanisms of how we hear are not so well known, although more is known about it that people believe. It can be shown, and the link Chu provided does so, that the impedance seen by the amp is exactly the same in both cases. If the impedance is the same and the voltage drop is the same, then the current and the phase lead/lag characteristics must be the same. Since all of the information that you hear is contained in that signal, and it can be shown that the signals are identical in either case, there doesn't appear to be any electrical basis for bi-wiring. On the other hand it also means it does no harm either. As to why, or whether or not you hear a difference, I can't say. But I can eliminate the signal from the amp as a cause.

Andy

 

[Keith Hyde]

Well what if you want to bi-wire because it looks cool, and makes it look like you know what you are doing? All that fancy braided wire and shiny banana plugs or silver soldered spades. Instant audiophile.

Can't forget the cool fool factor guys! With stereos, don't they say image is what its all about? Or was that imaging...

 

[Garrett Lundy]

An amplifier can't "see" anything. If I plugged a Krell 1000watt monoblock into a cats asshole it would send the entire 1000 watts to fry the kitty's colon and wouldn't stop until you unplugged it. The scientist may be trying to describe a case of impedence, but his analogy is terrible.

 

[RobWil]

But if you bi-wired, it would not only fry the colon, but maybe you could take out some other organ too!

 

[Jon_S]

With bi-wiring, there's more to go wrong. You have more terminated connectors on the cable, and more binding posts you're using on the speaker (well, you're going to have to use the terminal through the jumper if you don't bi-wire), not to mention however you're connecting at the amp level will be more complicated through using either two cables into one post or using an A+B configuration.

 

[RobWil]

I just picked up a pair of Paradigm Sudio 40's and the manual actually says that bi-wiring will give better clarity and detail. You think they actually believe it or are they just going along with the flow?

 

[Jon_S]

Good point, a while back, I actually called them to ask. They recommend the bi-wiring for my 20's and CC, and they don't have anything to gain. In fact, it's worse for them because you can't spend that extra money on speakers. BTW, if the bi-wire cable is the same price, it's not going to be another set of conductors just for bi-wiring. Generally you would get more of the cable you were buying in a standard pair, but pay more.

 

[Chu Gai]

As with all ads and comments, one needs to read the words very carefully.
A lot of people look at single wiring as something like running a length of 12 gauge to the speaker while biwiring might be running two lengths of 12 gauge. I happen not to but that's what people generally assume and that includes the manufacturers.
Let's consider RobWil's statement bi-wiring will give better clarity and detail in the context of what happens to the signal and forget for the moment issues of audibility. For a given setting on your amp or receiver, you'll have less resistive losses. You'll also have a very slightly flatter frequency response. That can be interpreted as better clarity and detail.
If anyone's interested, some time back, I outlined a procedure whereby an individual, with the aid of a couple of friends and a desire to scientifically investigate the audibility, if any, of biwiring, could do so.

 

[Jon_S]

Chu, it would be interesting to hear the procedure. So if you take one length of 12AWG cable and turn it into two runs, basically then you're talking about 24AWG to each terminal, right?

 

[Wayde_R]

Holy smokes that more information than I can digest on bi-amping, bi-wiring.

But I have something to add just because I have some experience.

I happened to have an extra NAD power amp kicking around with nothing to do, so I put it to work because my speakers are bi-wirable.

I sometimes play with the configuration, giving the NAD the low end of my fronts the reciever the high end and vice versa. I figure it lightens the load on my reciever that has three other speakers to power. But really, I don't know that I hear an audible difference. It might be perceptible only if I were to test a track at high volume that spiked frequencies that encompassed both the high and low ends of my front speakers at the same time. Then bi-amping probably pays off. But that is going to be quite rare.

I just like having that NAD power amp in my stack actually serving a purpose. I wouldn't go buy a separate amp just for this.

 

[Jon_S]

Edit for Chu (but posting here since Wayde responded):

I was thinking if I were doing it that it would basically be double the amount of cable traveling separately (in one jacket) to each set of terminals on the speaker from one terminal on the amp. Essentially talking about what should be similar to buying two sets of the non-bi-wiring cables and combining the source connectors into a single pair. Companies don't charge you 2x though for this service even though it's almost 2 sets of cables (only termination and outer jacket should be different). Doesn't this effectively act as a lower AWG cable (6AWG) to the speaker?

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

I'm still laughing at the fried cat

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

I'm still laughing at the fried cat

 

[TimMc]

Well, the cat sure was not amused...

What the heck - I know I've got some extra 12 gauge lying around somewhere. I suppose I could pull the jumpers and run double lengths across the front just to see what it sounds like. And if I do it with both eyes tightly shut I guess I can even say I did it double blind.