Speaker suggestions (<$3k/pr.) have a good amp...

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Kenneth Harden, Dec 23, 2006.

  1. Kenneth Harden

    Kenneth Harden Screenwriter

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    ...and CD player (Primare I21 and CD21). Despite the modest power rating, this little integrated is a monster.

    The #1 requirement is that I can beat the snot out of the speakers, in that they can handle a lot of power on very demanding music (lots of electronic music with bone-crushing bass) played loud - but obviously be able to take it.

    Currently, I am running Klipsch F3's (not talking about sound quality - but each tower has 2, 8" woofers that are not afraid to work hard vs. speakers with a small woofer that would just get overwhelmed and give out) the speakers are good and are able to produce plenty of bass and sheer output, but I know they are no match to the front end I have in terms of sound QUALITY (the QUANTITY part is fine).

    What speakers in the
     
  2. timZa

    timZa Stunt Coordinator

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    ?
     
  3. Kenneth Harden

    Kenneth Harden Screenwriter

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    Huh?

    I have nice amp and CD player, my speakers have plenty of output and bass, I want the same amount of output and bass, but in a better quality speaker to take advantage of my CD player and amp.
     
  4. Ed Moxley

    Ed Moxley Cinematographer

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    Check here, and see if there's a dealer near you: http://www.allisonacoustics.com
    Excellent speakers. Not sure of the prices nowadays though............. [​IMG]
    Good luck!
     
  5. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    the klipsch speakers will go down to 35 Hz, and can handle 150W (or 600W peak, whatever peak means...) They have a efficiency of 97 db/W.

    The Primare I21 amplifier is "conservatively rated" at 75W into 8 ohms, and 125 W into 4 ohms.

    It's always helpful to have specs... Now, one further question-- how loud do you play your music? A spl measurement might help here. The basic problem is that only a few speakers are as efficient as the klipsch, and 75W may not be enough to produce the deep bass that you're after.
     
  6. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

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    Ken

    Don't quite know how to tell you this, but without a subwoofer you are doing yourself a disservice. RF 83 down 3db at 29 is not what I call bone crushing bass. I have speakers that are down 3db at 31Hz and without a really good sub I miss out on a tremendous amount of deep bass. Currently running two HSU VTF-3HO plus Turbos and the bass is ungodly loud and I can't begin to use their full capacity. But if you really need a high efficiency tower, the RF83 looks like a quality product.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

    PS Have driven mains with Nakamichi 100 per side and can't begin to compensate for lack of subwoofers.
     
  7. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    also, note that primare i21 lacks a crossover-- any satellite/subwoofer ystem would need decent crossover circuitry, so in some ways it's easiest to consider full range speakers.

    Some "full range" speakers (i.e. definitive technologies) have built in powered subwoofers...
     
  8. JohnRice

    JohnRice Lead Actor

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    Speakers are rarely damaged by being fed too much clean power. They are damaged by being fed distortion from an overdriven amp. No matter how "conservative" the rating of your amp is, if it is driven to distortion, it will damage anything you hook it up to. There are plenty of high end speakers out there with low enough impedance and sensitivity to send your amp into meltdown even at relatively moderate levels, so don't be overly confident with its abilities.
     
  9. Kenneth Harden

    Kenneth Harden Screenwriter

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    Thanks guys.

    I do understand, fairly well, how speakers work (I am into DIY, spend plenty of time in WinISD and such).

    Like I said, I am happy with the amount of bass I get now, all I am after is sound quality with the SAME GENERAL AMOUNT of bass - I just don't want to take a step backwards.

    I know the whole thing about clean power not damaging speakers and all that, but I can assure you the music I listen to with this amp would destroy a paid of small Vienna's or Martin Logan's (the woofers would run out of excursion, I have played with them before).

    The Def Towers with the subs are interesting, but would not work well, I would be sending a full range signal to a speaker that would 'reject' the bass and send it to the sub (I have played with them and don't think they are suitable for my needs, they really need to be run with a home theater processor for best results).

    Honestly, I don't really need any info about how the stuff works (I do understand it well), just looking for suggestions on large, full-range, fairly efficient floor-standing speakers under $3k to look at, thats all - there is a lot out there and just need you guys to make some suggestions for me to investigate.

    Thanks!
     
  10. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    The von schweikert vr-2 does 25 Hz to 25 KHz. Will it be loud enough? I don't know. Might be worth a listen, anyway.
     
  11. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

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    Kenneth

    My Nakamichi is a 100 watt/side audiophile grade amp. I just don't know how to explain to you that you simply cannot get the kind of impact from any full range speaker compared to a good mid-sized speaker and a good subwoofer. The von schweikert is a fine speaker but is far less efficient than the Klipsch RF83. With all due respect to my friend Jeremy, 75 watts won't due justice to the VR-2, at the kind of levels you are talking about.

    Also, your amp is a lower end audiophile amp, that was not really designed for ear shattering levels...

    In a way you are trying to mix apples and oranges. In the review I read, that amp was used with Vandersteen speakers, not high efficiency towers being used at very high output levels.

    I continue to recommend that you seriously consider the use of a subwoofer. I am aware of a considerable number of high end systems, and virtually all of them use a subwoofer for music (as well as HT).

    I just don't want you to be disappointed.

    Best thing is to go with the Klipsch RF83 for your purposes.

    No offense, but how do you expect to move subwoofer volume bass with any tower? It just doesn't work like that.

    The closest that I have seen to an audiophile quality full range speaker that has a superior design including a woofer and subwoofer is the Snell Type B. These beasts are rare and weigh 125 pounds per side. If you can score a pair of these you might like what you hear. Even so, they are not designed to blast electronic music...

    The closest I came to experiencing a system using only towers involved the use of 5 B&W 802's using 5 X 500 watt Bryston monoblocks, to the tune of about $18,000.

    Keep us informed of your progress.
     
  12. JohnRice

    JohnRice Lead Actor

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    I second Arthur. Kenneth, I know you believe you know how this stuff works, but the reason I responded the way I did is because the questions you ask and the expectations you express indicate that you don't. If you really want to "beat the snot" out of any speaker with your amp, you have extremely limited choices. Klipsch is certainly a primary way to go due to their efficiency and easy load.

    I have a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 driven with an Aragon 4004II, which at their extremely low impedance, gives me somewhere in the area of 600 wpc, and it is not too much, or even enough, and that's with frequencies being rolled off to a sub below 80Hz. Funny thing is, I think I auditioned the Snells Arthur mentioned when I was shopping for them.


    Anyway, I second the idea of a good pair of 2 ways and a GOOD sub. Look at SVS for starters.
     
  13. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    Arthur, you're quite right. The VR-2 is not spectacularly efficient. Merely an idle thought.

    Ken, here's what I suggest you do. Go down to Radio shack. Get an SPL meter. Listen to your music at what you consider to be respectable levels, and watch the needle/LCD. This should give use some idea of how you define loud.

    Then, measure how far the speakers are from the walls, and how far your chair is from the speakers.

    All those figures should allow us to calculate whether you need an average tower speaker (90 dB/W), or a very efficient speaker (95+ dB/W). Finally, what are you looking for in a speaker?
    Low end response? Pin point imaging? Sound stage? Accuracy?
     
  14. Kenneth Harden

    Kenneth Harden Screenwriter

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    Thanks guys!

    Like I said already, a few times, is I am 100% SATISFIED with the bass I am getting and the only requirement is the new speakers be able to produce the same sort of levels.

    Now in terms of efficientcy, I am very aware that my Klipsch are ultra-efficient, and this amp is able to drive them well - and that is certainly a major issue as most other speakers are less, or far less efficient than the Klipsch, and I would need a power amp that was MUCH bigger.

    As far as whats loud, with the current setup is plenty loud, and to be honest, the amp is probably 'well matched' in terms of the output I want and what the speakers can do. The amp maxes out at '72', I have had it on 60 for a few seconds in 'quiet' passages that I wanted to play loud, and for constant listening, 35-40 is about it. Hard to quantify this, but the amp does not 'wuss out' as you go up, it puts out exponentially more power the higher the volume goes up.

    I do have a SPL meter.

    Arthur - I never said I wanted anything magical on the bass, I just want to be able to hear what was on the record when I crank it up, I have played with plenty of speakers where the bass just 'maxed out' because the speakers were not designed to produce a lot of full range bass. And I understand to do this, you need a BIG pair of speakers, and a BIG amp.

    I appreciate all the help, but maybe I need to ask a different question:

    "What sort of speakers/amps should I look at to get real full-range sound without a subwoofer" - disregarding my equipment?
     
  15. Arthur S

    Arthur S Cinematographer

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    Ken

    Don't get me wrong. I have 45 years experience with AV/HT and I have had about 14 different speakers, 7 different receivers, and a Citation 7.1 amp, old Technics stereo receiver @205 X 2 @ 4 ohms, Kenwood VR-6070 (92 X 6), Denon AVR 2500, etc., and now a Denon 5803A = 390 X 2 @ 2 ohms. I was never able to achieve anywhere near the bass levels (compared to even an inexpensive subwoofer), even with the best towers I ever owned.

    If you can't live with a subwoofer, you are just going to lose out on the bottom octave.

    Right now I am using two HSU VTF-3HO + Turbos and according to recent unofficial tests, the '3 HOs exceed a single SVS PB-12 Plus/2. My bass is essentially flat to 12Hz and you are going to be down about 3db at 28 Hz.

    Best advice. Keep your amp and get the Klipsch RF-83.

    Please keep me posted.

    Art
     
  16. GO-RIDE.com

    GO-RIDE.com Auditioning

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    I agree with the other poster that said it is unlikely you will get the type of bass you are looking for from a tower speaker that can be driven by your 125W amp. If I had to pick a $3K speaker that can play nearly that low and still sing I'd go with the Vandersteen 3A Sig. There are other speakers that can make more bass noise for that price, but very few are as well rounded.

    Ultimately, if you really want that type of bass you need a dedicated subwoofer or two. I'd look at spending $1k - $2k on a good sub and then what's left on a nice pair of book shelf speakers.
     
  17. Kenneth Harden

    Kenneth Harden Screenwriter

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    I have yet to see any bookshelf speaker that could simply handle loud electronic music without the woofer just 'giving in'.

    Sure, just fine on a HT receiver where you can throw a 60, 80 Hz. hi-pass in there, but my Primare is definetly full-range and even gives my big towers a workout, I cannot imagine what they would do to a pair of bookshelf speakers.

    AGAIN - I don't need more bass, my decent entry level Klipsch speakers are able to produce all the bass I want, let alone something bigger, better, and more expensive (which is what I am looking for). And yes, the RF-83's might be a solution.

    I guess I could always buy this and open up my choices!!!

    http://www.sumikoaudio.net/primare/products/a32.htm
     
  18. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    leaving you approximately negative one thousand dollars to spend on speakers...
     

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