Speaker Quandary (1 Viewer)

[apn73]

Hello All,
I was listening to music the other night, a little AC/DC to be exact and noticed that one of my Paradigm Titans (the front channel speakers in the system) had some crackily distortion coming out of it during a guitar solo, and not because I was playing them too loud. This is not the first time that this has happened, noticed it last year at about this time and my very loving, and understanding wife brought home a pair of PSB Alpha B1's for me to demo as a Christmas present. For the sake of both cost and timbre match I opted to have the Titans repaired and all was good, for about a year, and here I am in the same place as before. The shop that I took them to (authorized dealer and servicer of Paradigm) charges $40 to inspect them and charged me $40 to refoam the insulation and test. I'm not going to keep investing that kind of money into 14 year old speakers, once was more than enough. Here's the quandary, all of the speakers in my system (all Paradigm except for the sub-woofer, CC-170 center channel, ADP-170 surrounds) have all been discontinued. Even if I was to buy the closest speaker to the Titan in Paradigm's current line-up, it's still not going to be timbre matched, at least not to my limited knowledge. The dealer told my wife that the PSB Alpha B1's would be a very close match to the set-up that I have, not sure if I believe that, but I don't have a lot of other options. The remaining speakers are obviously worth a fair amount of money and work just fine, what would you people do? Will the PSB's do me, or should I invest in a new set of front channels and surround channels that match? FYI - this will be a 50/50 music/home theater system.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Adam.

 

[schan1269]

Sell the complete set with the "known issue"...
We don't know how loud you were listening...and with what powering them. You might find somebody out there willing to take the whole thing for a fair price.
But, I think you should repair them, again. My "newest" speakers in any of my three theatres are the BIC V830(I bought them in 1991 as floor demo close-out).
Speakers are never too old.

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by apn73 /t/326002/speaker-quandary#post_4013299
Will the PSB's do me, or should I invest in a new set of front channels and surround channels that match?

Can't comment on how close a match the PSBs would be to the Paradigm's (they share much of the same pedigree so it's not beyond the realm of possibilities)...

But, if you're going to consider investing in new speakers, invest in a new front three and leave the surrounds alone. The surrounds don't have to match the fronts, but the center must match the mains.

 

[apn73]

Sell the complete set with the "known issue"...
We don't know how loud you were listening...and with what powering them. You might find somebody out there willing to take the whole thing for a fair price.
But, I think you should repair them, again. My "newest" speakers in any of my three theatres are the BIC V830(I bought them in 1991 as floor demo close-out).
Speakers are never too old.

I agree about never being too old, however I paid $209 when they were new and put $80 into them a year ago. Another $80 will put me at almost as much as paid for them new. I guess that was my point in that.
I was actually listening at a very low level, had just put the kids to bed, and they were being driven by a H/K AVR 300, 60 watts/channel. The speakers max recommended amp is 150 watts, no where near overpowering them. These speakers have lived a semi-charmed life, always guarded against pushing them too hard.

 

[apn73]

Can't comment on how close a match the PSBs would be to the Paradigm's (they share much of the same pedigree so it's not beyond the realm of possibilities)...
But, if you're going to consider investing in new speakers, invest in a new front three and leave the surrounds alone.  The surrounds don't have to match the fronts, but the center must match the mains.

This is point for discussion, not arguing here, just throwing this out to hear opinions. Tom Nousaine once said that the center channel market is a complete sham, and that the best center channel speaker in the world is a 2-way speaker with a 6.5" woofer, situated vertically, 5.25" woofer is almost as good. He called out PSB, Paradigm, NHT, Boston Acoustics, Infinity, and a couple of others as the best for the job because of their flat frequency response. He did say that any old speaker you have sitting around that meets the above description will do the job just fine. What say you all?

 

[schan1269]

Technically he's right as MTM is not the best speaker arrangement.

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by apn73 /t/326002/speaker-quandary#post_4013338
He did say that any old speaker you have sitting around that meets the above description will do the job just fine. What say you all?

I don't think I agree with that - not just because I've ever tried using one of my old PSB alphas in the center and pairing it with a couple of floorstanding Klipsch's - but because something tells me that no matter what speakers you're comparing, some combinations will sound better than others.

However, if that's something that you agree with, then even better - more budget for the mains! However I still fail to see the logic of "new mains" means "new surrounds" other than a desire to get new speakers for the sake of getting new speakers. Certainly, if the center doesn't have to match the mains, then there's even less reason for the surrounds to match the mains, right?

 

[Number1AVdork]

I really like the old B&W 302 speakers with a fiber woofer and rubber surround. On the used ebay market they can be had for about 125$ a pair. They are a great speaker and I found them to be much more fun to listen to than the PSB and Paradigms in the same budget class. Also the old Mission, Celestion speakers are nice.
No need to spend 200-300$ on new speakers when the used market has many great alternatives.

 

[apn73]

However, if that's something that you agree with,

This why I qualified my statemenet "....point for discussion....", this is a subject that is controversial. http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Center%20Channel%20Speakers.pdf This is the link to what Tom Nousaine had to say about center channels, and it made me think about tibre matching and how important it really is. I don't believe that you can get away with mixing Klipsch with PSB, that 's a gross difference to say the least, but in a system like mine? I definitely don't want to buy new for the sake of buying new, but I also don't want to throw out good money after bad. I'm trying to make an informed and educated decision.
Thanks for input,
Adam.

 

[schan1269]

Let me throw mine out there...and you'll understand why I recommend speakers the way I do...
I listen to SACD/DVD-A. Those two formats "require" all 5 speakers to match...exactly. How many of us have room for a center speaker that matches our mains?
And if SACD/DVD-A "require" 4(lets throw the center out of this part...) matching speakers...then you are doing it "wrong" if you use tower fronts and bookshelf rear. You see, SACD/DVD-A isn't "beholden" to the "80hz crossover" that "Dolby standard" 5.1 is.
I have SACD/DVD-A discs that run down to 25hz on the 5.0 and up to 120hz on the .1. Do any "Dolby/DTS standard" movie soundtracks do that? Probably...but I'm not wasting my time looking...
So, I "build" my theatres(of which I have three: living room, basement and main bedroom) on SACD/DVD-A first...Dolby/DTS 2nd.
Am I 100% correct in doing so? No.
Am I wrong in doing so? No.

 

[gene c]

Not really sure what you should do Adam but I'm wondering why you blew to pairs of Titan's in the first place . Crossover set too low? Problem in the amp section of the H/K? H/K's have always had very good amp sections and Titan's are very good speakers. This shouldn't have happenned once let alone twice.
MTM center speakers are a sham but we still buy them. I've heard of other speaker designers suggesting a 5 1/4 inch is the largest driver that should be used for vocals. Depends on who you ask I guess. But my best guess is a verticle bookshelf speaker centered behind an acoustically transparent projection screen might be the best combination. But how many of us can accomplish that? I have three Beta 20's on hand so maybe I'll put them all up front (at the same height) and "hear" what happens. In my experience, traditional center speakers never really sounded that much like their matching main's anyway. The highs are fine but the mid-range is always a little off. The Polk LSiC and LSi7's came the closest. Traditional center speakers look nice on or under the display but they never really sound right to me. When sitting in the "sweet spot" a phantom center usually sounds better to me. But I rarely set it up that way.

 

[apn73]

Not really sure what you should do Adam but I'm wondering why you blew to pairs of Titan's in the first place . Crossover set too low? Problem in the amp section of the H/K? H/K's have always had very good amp sections and Titan's are very good speakers. This shouldn't have happened once let alone twice.

I should have known that Sherlock Gene would sniff something out. That's a good question and I'll give you the history as I know it. One of the speakers got dropped while moving I believe; not sure how, but that is when I first noticed that one of the speakers had a little bit of distortion at certain points while listening to music. It was one of those things that seemed pretty minor, always meant to take of and never got around to it, then I had kids. For those of you who are single, you haven't lived until one of your children completely trashes something that you guarded with your life while you were single. Most everything I cherish has escaped relatively unscathed, but my Titans were one of the few casualties. Unbeknownst to me my son adjusted the balance all way over to the weak speaker, and that finished it off. That motivated me to finally get the issue taken care of, lasted a year and now I'm noticing distortion again. I've checked the balance a know that that hasn't caused it. I've been listening to it since I first heard the issue and haven't noticed since. I heard it during an AC/DC guitar solo on the Razor's Edge album. I do have a sub-woofer and have the H/K set to "small" for all of the speakers, and it doesn't make sense that this would be the cause because the issue was on the low range side of the speaker. This has all happened on the right front channel.
Back to your point Gene, maybe the speaker didn't get dropped and there is an issue with the receiver. How do I troubleshoot this so I can either fix it or prevent more speakers from getting chewed up?

 

[schan1269]

Setting the speakers "small" still doesn't say what crossover you used.
I give my speakers a decent pounding. I'm currently watching football while listening to a mixture of Crystal Method and Fragile State, with some Gregorian Chant mixed in. I'm in and out of the room(Bears/Packers...yawner) and have it cranked enough to hear it 3 rooms away. My M2A are peaking at 60 watts. My M&K subwoofer is pumping right along( it is the oldest speaker in the house closing in on 30 years old).
Unless you are clipping this HK, you should never have this problem.

 

[apn73]

Setting the speakers "small" still doesn't say what crossover you used.
I give my speakers a decent pounding. I'm currently watching football while listening to a mixture of Crystal Method and Fragile State, with some Gregorian Chant mixed in. I'm in and out of the room(Bears/Packers...yawner) and have it cranked enough to hear it 3 rooms away. My M2A are peaking at 60 watts. My M&K subwoofer is pumping right along( it is the oldest speaker in the house closing in on 30 years old).
Unless you are clipping this HK, you should never have this problem.

The only thing the manual says about the crossover point is that when "small" is selected for speaker sizes, then everything under 100 hz goes to the sub-woofer channel. It is not adjustable, went through the manual last night trying to figure it out, as a matter fact I am running the thing at the default settings with the exception of the speaker sizes, and other than delay and loudness, that is the only thing the manual talks about as far as bass management is concerned. I'm not pushing the H/K that hard, so I don't believe that that is the issue.