SOPRANOS Season 6: Season Finally!!!.. Episode 12: "KAISHA" (1 Viewer)

[Joseph DeMartino]

That's right! Think Desperate Housewives with homely men instead of hot women and a lot more guns!

(Personally, I'm addicted to both. And sometimes I think a cross-over would be a hoot. I'd love for Bree's son to drive down to New Jersey sometime - so he can die in a firey head-on collision with A.J. Soprano. )

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jeff Gatie]

How should I know? I'm not as ejumacated as some around here. I went to Engineering School - I wasn't taught, I was trained.

 

[Holadem]

But mostly, you are too goddamn insular .

Yi Feng, I gotta say, I just LOVE how you boldly declare this sort of stuff as if it were some obvious, fundamental law of writing. And this isn't the first time you've done that. Really, just who do you think you are dealing with on these boards? .

Anyway, I enjoyed this episode better than the last one. Lots of hilarious moments. I was really scared for that gardner for a second, especially when Sil said "Can you believe this fucking guy" .

I have to agree that Vito's story is overstaying it's welcome for one very simple reason: I just do not find the character interesting in the least bit. I am willing to sit through these scenes in Six Feet Under because I actually like David and Keith. The Vito character was never appealing in any way, and his outing didn't change that. Rather, his sexual orientation was a tool used to 1- explore the reactions of the family to such an eventuality and mostly 2- gain insight into yet another aspect of Tony's psyche, which at the end of the day, is really the point of this show. Consequently, when disengaged from these two elements, as it was in the last episode, Vito's story is essentially dead in the water.

--
H

 

[JediFonger]

my god, if people just read my posts. i just explained 2 posts ago that i declare the stuff i write because that's what i believe. i couldn't give a rat's ass if you disagree, just back it up w/some hardcore evidence/logical argument even if included philosophical fallacies.

i don't need to write, "I THINK" everytime i'm already THINKING! duh! =). do you have to preface, "OKAY GUYS, LET ME TELL YOU, THIS IS WHAT I'M THINKING, GUYS! OKAY, IT's ONLY ME".

it's obvious to me as what ALL of you post is obvious to you. for example, should i rebutt your perception of "insular." by saying, "oh man, but that's only YOUR point of view.".

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Uhhm, you do realize that this is not self-contained episodic television? We haven't seen an ending because it has not ended yet. As far as the ending of that particular episode, we learned a few things: The tough, streetwise characters are useless in the wilderness (similar to Vito in NH). The miscommunication, as symbolized by the hysterical cell phone conversation, is rampant in the Family. Do I have to go on? This is a chracter drama, we learn about the characters in bits and pieces and the ultimate payoff is not untill the end. Moreover, the ultimate payoff just may be the journey itself (wouldn't that fry everyone's ass ). You don't like it because it is not a 1 hour self-contained episode each week. But that does not mean it is not an epic story that is told in classical form.

 

[Holadem]

None of this addresses your assertion that this form of storytelling provides less insight into the characters - my point of contention. As for my "rebuttal", it is of no less substance than your argument. You want a meatier response? Provide a meatier conjecture .

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H

 

[Scott_Sch]

I'm a lurker here in the Sopranos thread and you guys have completely lost me with all this classical story telling stuff and what not, but anyway...

I love the Sopranos and have pretty much liked every season, whether they focus more on Tony's mob family or more on his actual family. The problem I have with this season so far is its not really focussing on either. Yeah we get all excited by the first couple of episodes with Tony getting shot and expecting some big changes to come with regard to his character, whether it be him turning a little soft and trying to get out of the "life" in order to enjoy what he discovers is really important...his true family. Or he just goes balls to the walls and takes the Jersey mob family into a wild tailspin ultimately leading to his demise. With this being the last season (or I guess first part of the last season?) you expect these episodes to lead you to some sort of conclusion. Now I realize the Sopranos is not a normal television drama and they do follow a different set of rules with regard to open ended plot items that are never resolved, and I'm completely cool with that, but they better at least take Tony to some sort of conclusion. And up to now the only thing that I can continue to think about this damn season is that a gay mobster is up in Maine eating pancakes and having firefighter fantasies!!!!

I'm looking for one of Tony's families to go somewhere with the story and its just not happening yet. I could care less if there is one more bullet fired on screen, but at least move the story forward with Tony is some way, shape or form.

What do we have, like two episodes left until the hiatus? Whats the conclusion going to be at the end of this first part of the season...Vito's gay and Tony has issues with offing him? Thats what this whole partial season story arc is going to be about? Even after they laid the ground work for a very compelling and drama-oriented internal struggle within Tony and we get "Johnny Cakes"?!?!?!

I'm sorry I love the show for what it is....a family drama. The only problem is, there is no family drama arc really going on right now. Yeah there are tid bits of it here and there, but it looks like its going to be spread out all the way to the conclusion after the hiatus. So explain to me why I have invested my time into the show this season? I would have been better off recording every episode and then watching them before the next part starts up, at least then maybe I would get the feeling of some sort of resolution. Right now I still enjoy it and there have been some really great moments this season, but right now it just feels empty. Here's hoping they give us some sort of conclusion prior to the break coming in a couple of episodes.

Sorry for the rant, but I finally just caught the episode last night.

Nib High Football Rules!!!

 

[JediFonger]

ya'll keep saying so, but you're not listing specifics. what substance are you referring to? another general pot-shot at nothing.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Again, nothings been paid off for you, but those of us who view it as a character piece think there has been a great payoff since season 2. I know more about Tony now than I did then. That's my "payoff".

 

[Holadem]

YiFeng,

Why
do
you
think
classical
storytelling
provides
more
insight
into
characters
than
avant-garde/experimental
type
?

That is what I have been trying to get you to explain (aka substantiate), rather than just throwing it out there like some obvious truth. You may very well be right, I am only asking to be convinced with arguments, not apparently baseless conjectures.

--
H

 

[Jeff Gatie]

*whisper* Trust me, we are all completely lost on that point. *whisper*

 

[Charlie Campisi]

Not lost. Bored.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Just skip those posts. They add nothing to the thread and you'll find the whole thing reads much faster that way.

What some people seem not to understand is that The Sopranos is akin to a book or series of books that is being serialized in a magazine. Each week the writer creates, and we get, a new chapter. The writer cannot go back and edit the earlier chapters, he's stuck with those because he's publishing as he goes along, and we've already read them. So if he changes his mind about something, he either has to leave a thread dangling or cheat the continuity or he has to give up on the new idea in the name of consistency.

Unlike a novelist who writes a complete manuscript and then hands it in to a publisher, he can't go back and rewrite the earilier chapters to bring them in line with the later ones. He can't edit, he can't revise.

In addition, since this is TV, he's dependent on other people to get his story "told", and that puts a whole other set of constraints on him. Certain actors may have to get a given amount of screen time or number of episodes by contract. Other actors can be lost due to illness, contract disputes, even death. Then the producers must choose between losing the character and adjusting the story or recasting the role and ticking off some of the fans.

Finally, of course, the chapters aren't going to be self-contained, even some "volumes" (seasons) in the series may not be, just as some books end in cliff-hangers "to be continued in the next". The overall shape of the series may still be as "classical" (to use an absolutely meaningless and still undefined term) as anyone could like. Presumably if you only read act I of Hamlet or the first three chapters of Don Quixote they don't seem very "classical", either.

And last of all, this is a where the writer may have an ultimate destination in mind, but where the "publisher" (and the actors and crew) have tremendous input into how many "chapters" there are. If I'm a novelist and I feel like I'm about at the halfway mark of my plot when I hit page 150 of the manuscript, I can plan on finishing around page 300. It isn't likely that the publisher is going to call me and say, "Sorry, we can only take 200 pages, better hurry it up" or "On second thought, we'd prefer 400 pages, can you stretch it out a bit? We'll pay you a whole bunch more money!"

And if I dig in my heels and say "stop" at page 300, I'm not throwing a bunch of people I've known liked for the better part of a decade out of work. That's what a producer does when he pulls the plug on a TV show. Think about it. That's like having a company you've worked for, maybe in the best and best-paying job you've ever had or are likely to have, suddenly close its doors not after a few bad quarters, but after its best sales year ever. That's why most shows end up hanging on a couple of years longer than they should, and end up losing artistic steam and ratings until they are inglorious cancelled instead of going out on top.

Like Joe Straczynski with Babylon 5, David Chase may have had the last scene of the last episode of The Sopranos in his head since before he shot the pilot, and have been building toward that in various ways since then, but have to deal with all the zigs and zags and uncertainties in between. We'll know what things have been "left hanging" (or not, some things are just incidents and local color, never meant to be resolved, even in "classical stories") when it is over - not before.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jeff Gatie]

I just have to address this. The Adriana/FBI thread has paid off. The Tony/Carmella separation has paid off. The Ralph Ciffaretta thread has paid off. The Furio/Carmella thread has paid off. The Jackie Jr. thread has paid off. The Tony Blundetto/Phil Leotardo thread paid off (and will continue to pay off in the future). The Paulie Walnuts and his mother thread is still paying off. Most of Tony's affairs have paid off. The Christopher/Drugs thread has and still continues to pay off. The Vito getting serviced in the pickup that happened all the way back last season (when everyone said it was a "loose thread") is now paying off. The Uncle Junior thread is still weaving it's way in and out and may yet pay off (then again maybe it won't). The Big Pussy thread paid off in season 2, but it's implications are still felt, i.e. Carmella's view of a independent woman running a semi-legitimate buisiness.

And almost every week, when Tony sits in the shrink's chair, the entire series pays off when you get to see inside of the brutal man you hate to love (or love to hate).

 

[Scott_Sch]

Haha...glad I'm not the only one!

 

[JediFonger]

joe, if you watched s1 bonus/extra, chase has already stated to peter b. that sopranos was meant to be a feature film (with the mother-son-psychiatry plot only) that got turned into a TV series. he has no idea what the end is and is making it up as he is going along. it's DEFINITELY not b5 for sure. not even at b5's worst. i'm willing to go out on a limb that there'll be many things unfulfilled by the end of spring 2007, many threads inconclusive at best.

jeff, adrian/fbi has paid off how? that's not an example, just a list. in what ways? t/c separation has paid off how? the talk over the house? the fact that t still lies to his wife? that he almost banged another chic? how? ralph's paid off how? do you know what paid off means?

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Do you? It has come to a resolution, an ending, a purpose, a furtherance of our understanding. As an example, the whole Ralph storyline was to show us the duality of Tony's personality when it comes to emotions vs. business. He didn't kill Ralph when he killed the stripper, although he got really mad, because she was just business and Ralph was a "good earner". It took Ralph killing the horse, "a beautiful defenseless animal" for Tony to finally put a stop to Ralph. The ironinc thing is that Tony could not relate to the stripper as "beautiful and defenseless" because she was part of "business" Tony. Pie-O-Mine was part of the other Tony, the one who we saw for the first time actually happy, sitting peacefully in the stall with the horse and the goat, away from the burdens of his mafia position. Tony's duality (often symbolized or depicted by animals - ducks, horse, the bear) between 'father' and 'Godfather', between good man and thug, is the main conflict in the show, as was clearly seen in the coma sequences this year. The purpose for Ralph was not to show that Tony and Christopher are good at chopping up a body. It was to show that although business Tony is heartless and ruthless, the other Tony is sensitive and caring enough (in his own way) to avenge a dead horse. The two sides of Tony were never displayed more clearly than the contrasting scenes of Tony and the stripper vs. Tony and the horse.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Do you? Because you give no sign of it. Maybe if you weren't so arrogant and condescending, and took trouble to explain yourself and define your terms instead of demanding that others define theirs, your posts would be less annoying. And less of a joke.

You evidently think you know what "paid off" means and Jeff doesn't. So why didn't you explain it to him instead of just scoring cheap points by declaring your intellectual superiority and mocking him?

BTW do you have any idea how unintentionally ironic your signature is?

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Thanks Joe, you said what I could not bring myself to say for fear of being labeled ignorant. I purposefully did not choose the Adriana arc because what you say is so obvious I thought either YiFeng knew a whole lot more about storytelling or I was missing something due to lack of knowledge. Glad to know my first instincts were correct, despite my poor "Literature for Geeks" arts education.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

It's a TV show. I've followed the thread and I know the reasons behind it, and I'm still going to say that I see it as unfortunate that human beings resort to attacks over differing opinions of a TV show.