Setting Up a Pioneer DV-45A (1 Viewer)

[Brian L]

Took a look at the AVS link; sure looks like this is the way it is across the board. Very discouraging actually.

I will be open minded about this, but at the moment, it sure looks to me like a defect in the player. If DD and DTS require a +10 bump, then the decoder should apply it. If DVD-A and SACD do not, then the player should NOT apply the bump.

It really makes things tough in certain set ups (LIKE MINE!!!!).

Anyone out there know where a set of SACD or DVD-A tests tracks can be found? How those sources balance would be useful information. Then again, my DVD-A software (ELP, Queen, and Big Phatt Band) sound good with the LFE boost I have to apply for DD and DTS.

BL

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Brian- www.chesky.com has a DVD-A test disc. Mine is on the way...

 

[DennisK]

I picked up the 45A today. I set it up with small front speakers and the subwoofer on and also noticed a lack of bass on DVD-Audio. After making several adjustments I set the front speakers to the large setting and noticed that not only did my front speakers pick up more bass, my sub level also appeared to increase.

It almost sounded as if it's ignoring the subwoofer channel when the fronts are set to small and just routing bass from the other 5 channels to the subwoofer output instead of summing the subwoofer channel with any bass from the other 5 channels. Or possibly it was crossing over the subwoofer at a low level, say 50 Hz and the speakers around 100.

It'll be interesting to see what pioneer has to say. I noticed mine is also a July build date.

 

[Hartwig Hanser]

Yea, but the exact crossover is unknown right now. That said, I took some measurements with SpectraPlus yesterday, and it appears to be in the 100 to 120 Hz region, what is unfortunate. Looks like there will be an ICBM in my future.

I called Pioneer and was told the crossover is at 120 Hz. This is much too high in my opinion.

Since I have floorstanding main speakers (B&W CDM 7NT) I think about telling the Pioneer player "no sub". Then the .1 info should be distributed to the mains, at least that is what the people at Pioneer told me.
Since we are talking about music (in my case classical music), I am sure, the mains will be able to reproduce the bass. They are at least able to do the full bass of my conventional CDs. An symphony is not Jurassic park! Anyway many classical DVD Audio or SACD do not use the .1 channel at all or at least not for bass but other sound information like height channel.

 

[Bryan "C." A.]

Since we are talking about music (in my case classical music), I am sure, the mains will be able to reproduce the bass. They are at least able to do the full bass of my conventional CDs. An symphony is not Jurassic park!

What, no 5Hz organ music? Actually, Jurassic Park is not all that bass heavy. Scenes with subways typically have the most thump, though never rule out a good helicopter scene.

Anyhow, on to real business: so would anyone care to speculate whether bass output would be benefited by keeping all speakers at full range and using an ICBM? I am thinking of deploying this solution. Then I set the crossover to suit my needs, yes? I only want the 45a as a 6ch music player, as I am quite satisfied with the progressive video performance of my Panasonic with DPL/DD(EX)/DTS(ES) digital out to my processor.

Predictions for the next round of players and processors with bass management:
The 47ai will pave the way for a standard copy protected scheme that will allow digital processing of DVDA and hopefully in the future SACD (supposing both survive) to be handled at the processor end. This will mean 7 or 8 channel capability, including LFE crossover functionality, with proper variable gain and time alignment to boot. There is even now a need for 6.1 analog channel outputs since the sixth is often intended to be full range. Anyone know if .1 input on ICBM must be used or can center surround input be used instead, thus allowing for L, R, LS, RS, C, CS and .1 outputs?

 

[Brian L]

FWIW, I started a new thread to try to get a handle on which players have the problem, and which do not. The link is here:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=102249
BL

 

[Dan Stone]

I don't have a DV45A myself yet, but I'm quite interested in them and have been following the bass management issue in the hopes of a resolution before buying a unit.

Over the weekend, I went into Magnolia Hi-Fi (a well respected and long-time AV dealer here in the Northwest) to see the DV45A firsthand. I asked the salesman if he had heard of the low bass output problems with these units. He was unaware of the issue and said they had not had any returns on these units (nor the 47Ai) for bass management issues despite selling quite a few.

Hope this might help.

Dan

 

[Brian L]

I asked the salesman if he had heard of the low bass output problems with these units. He was unaware of the issue and said they had not had any returns on these units (nor the 47Ai) for bass management issues despite selling quite a few.

Thanks for your post. Any info is helpful!

That said, there are some posters who say they have not seen this, so it would appear not to be an across the board thing.

Then again, I would think it is possible that, depending on the users set-up, they either may not notice, or not perceive there to be an issue.

In my case, although I did return one unit, I am able to dial in my system with a combination of increasing the level of the sub amp, AND tweaking the input levels. I am just about out of adjustment on the input levels, but I can dial it in. Others may be able to do the same, and thus, do not return the unit.

If by chance you happen to visit you dealer again, it would be interesting to drag along a copy of Avia and perhaps an SPL meter (or ask if they wouldn't mind doing the same). That would tell the tale.

Thanks again for the input.

BL

 

[Anthony_K]

I just recently purchased the 47ai and had a question regarding issues with sub output and balancing the speakers in general.

When I went to balance my speakers, I chose the variable option. My speakers were configured as follows:

Front Right and Left = large
Center, Surrounds = small
Sub = On

I then set my processor to the 5.1 analog bypass input and raised the volume to 0 db. I proceeded to play the pioneer internal test tone manually through each speaker and adjusted the outputs to reflect 75 db for each channel. To do so, I left all channels at 0 db, except the surrounds (-1 db) and the sub (-1.5 db).

When listening to sacd's and dvd audio discs, I became concerned as I needed to boost the volume approximately 10 db's above my normal listening volume to get the system volume I enjoy.

I went back into the set-up menu for the 47ai and adjusted the channels outputs to 6 db across the board attempting to balance closer to 85 db. To keep the input levels relatively high and still balance all of the channels, I settled on the following settings:

Front 3 channels = +6.0 db
Surrounds = +5db
Sub = +4.5 db

When I went back to listen to sacd's and dvd audio titles, I now only had to boost the volume approximately 3 db above my normal listening levels to get the output I expect.

I have no intention of using the player to internally decode anything other than sacd and dvd audio. I was wondering whether the people that posted previously were unable to calibrate the channels equally with the pioneer internal test tones without having a 10 db spread between the sub and the remaining channels or whether they were able to calibrate the player properly with the internal test tones, but ran into issues with low sub output during real world listening. Please advise.

Thanks,

Anthony

 

[Brian L]

I was wondering whether the people that posted previously were unable to calibrate the channels equally with the pioneer internal test tones without having a 10 db spread between the sub and the remaining channels or whether they were able to calibrate the player properly with the internal test tones, but ran into issues with low sub output during real world listening. Please advise.

The 45A does not have an internal tone for the sub; only the main channels. To balance all channels + sub requires a DVD with test tones (Avia, VE, etc.).

The issue shows up with test tones. Unless one is able to balance the sub with the mains, program material sounds anemic.

In my case, I was able to get 85dB across the board, but that required that I run the 6CH input sub gain almost to max, AND boost the sub amp level as well. That caused an imbalance with Pro Logic sources, such that I then needed to drop the sub level almost to -10 on PL and Stereo sources.

BL

 

[Anthony_K]

That's interesting. The 47ai provides a test tone for the sub, but not if you choose auto in the menu (for some reason it skips the sub in auto mode) - you have to select the sub manually (via the icon on the far right) to get the test tone.

 

[Brian L]

That's interesting. The 47ai provides a test tone for the sub, but not if you choose auto in the menu (for some reason it skips the sub in auto mode) - you have to select the sub manually (via the icon on the far right) to get the test tone.

Interesting. I will check that on the 45A. Then again, the manual does say that there is NO test tone for the sub.

BL

 

[Bryan "C." A.]

Are there any who have considered letting their woofer module do the cross-over work for them? That is to say, set the player to 5.0 (no LFE output) and set the fronts to large, then connect front left and right amplified inputs to the bass module which then performs the cross-over for the front left and right speakers. I realize that not all subwoofers are capable of this, it defeats the discrete nature of DD and DTS, and may not be suitable to some whose super woofer is not at about the same distance from the listening position as the fronts; but, it is fairly inexpensive bass management unless ultra-expensive cables are used for the one or two additional connections.

 

[Bryce Miner]

the problem with that is when you select center small in the set up, the bass still is routed to the center speaker. the sizing dosen't have effect with dvd-a material. Thats why bass management is needed for high resolution audio.

 

[Brian L]

the problem with that is when you select center small in the set up, the bass still is routed to the center speaker. the sizing dosen't have effect with dvd-a material. Thats why bass management is needed for high resolution audio.

Bryce,

Do you know what test software is being used to arrive at this conclusion?

I unfortunately have only DD test tracks, so I have no way to send a full range DVD-A or SACD signal to each channel sequentially (while monitoring the sub output) to assess bass management, or lack thereof.

Methinks it would be handy to have such a disc.

BL

 

[Keith AP]

Brian...I think you said this earlier and I'm thinkin' it's the way to go...

Get the ICBM and use the 45A as simply a transport for DVD-Audio/SACD. The crossover flexibility and bass boost of the ICBM would solve all the problems (I think) :wink:

 

[Dan Stone]

>> Are there any who have considered letting their woofer module do the cross-over work for them?

 

[Bryan "C." A.]

Get the ICBM and use the 45A as simply a transport for DVD-Audio/SACD. The crossover flexibility and bass boost of the ICBM would solve all the problems (I think)

Alas, there are problems with this solution that could also be present with the one I proposed. Without full bass management in the digital domain, setting speaker distances for time delay purposes may cause some cancellation in the bass output. In fact, Outlaw Audio state specifically in the ICBM-1 manual that it would be best not to use time alignment due to that effect. The only speaker I have a problem with for ITU conformance is the center channel. I can perfectly position my nice comfortable chair between all but the center speaker which ends up being too close by about six feet. In order to get that six feet, I would have to make it a height channel. I guess I could turn off the center in the DV45A and let the left and right fronts provide me a phantom image of it. Now that I have written it, I may try that for feel and effect.

 

[Bryce Miner]

My statement earlier was in regards to dvd-a has no bass management in general. Excluding this and the 47ai player. I have used the Corrs in blue dvd-a and ziroq dvd-a which a lot of tracks have the bass in the center speaker. I wanted to redirect that bass to my sub. It works with the 45a. It won't with other players because of lack of support for bass management. (besides 47ai)

 

[Dan Stone]

Are you certain? I figured that the Pioneer DV45A did not do time alignment for SACD for the very purpose of not adding extra processing. I would think that frequency redirection and especially variable gain should be fairly transparent to any signal in that they can be done in-line, whereas time delay would almost certainly require buffering.

I'm not an expert, so I certainly may be mistaken, but take a look at this thread (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...0&pagenumber=2) and read post #53 and post #60 from Stacey Spears (who is very knowledgeable on these matters) and then continue on reading all of page 3 of the thread. I found the information very enlightening as well as a bit disappointing at the same time.