Sean Penn Speaks Out Against Hollywood's Formulaic Films (1 Viewer)

[Allen Hirsch]

Good discussion, with many good points already made.
I'm not sure if DVD helps or hurts the independent market. Gary's comment about seeing all his films on DVD, and others saying the indie/art films aren't really accessible in their area theaters reminds me of this dilemma. Several films I wanted to see in theaters here in the East Bay came and went so fast earlier this year, it was easier to rent them as soon as they came out on DVD.
If it takes box office numbers for art films to get "noticed" in Hollywood, and send a message to Hollywood execs that "good films" are better than the lame, brainless fare they've tried to foist on us this summer especially - isn't DVD actually an "enemy" of achieving those numbers, when the Gary Toozes and Allen Hirsches watch on DVD instead?

 

[Mike Broadman]

Yes, we should make more of an effort to see the smaller films. The power of the marketplace ultimately resides in the consumer. But Penn's statements are healthy. Every other Hollywood shill likes to go on about how meaningful their crumby movies are. It's nice to know that one of them at least has a brain. It might make him unpopular with some people in "the business," but he can find work. If he did indeed rail on Nick Cage, well, good for him. No, Penn's bitching isn't gonna fix anything, but it may help wake some movie goers up.
There's nothing wrong with making silly, 'popcorn' flicks. The problem is that they're all silly 'popcorn' flicks. Peolpe have given up. I get laughed at when I say that a movie plot makes no sense. "What do you expect, it's a movie?" As if we shouldn't expect more than explosions, T&A, and special effects.
Look at this thread. A lot of people are fed up with crappy movies. Almost everyone I talk to can't stand these movies. The really frustrating thing is, people go anyway. The feeling seems to be, "Well, this is what they're giving us, gotta go see something." Well, no, you don't. My advice is just don't go to the movies. Stay home. Go dancing. Find something else to do. If we don't go see Scay Movie, they won't make Scary Movie II.

 

[Rob Tomlin]

Actually I think it is a little ironic that Penn would make these statements.
I thought The Pledge was very Formulaic! How many movies have we seen where a cop is getting ready to retire but he has to solve that one last case? And how many times do we see a lonely person bring in a single parent, befriend their child, and thus catch the eye of the lonely (often battered) parent?
How often have we seen a cop shown as someone who has all these "instincts" and clues about a case, but everyone ignores him and thinks he's crazy?
The only thing not completely formulaic about The Pledge was the ending. But that certainly was not enough to keep the rest of the movie from being formulaic and even boring!

 

[Gary Tooze]

Gary, with all due respect, I would suggest that attitude makes you part of the problem. Good films are still made, but you (and no doubt, many others who feel the same as you do) are not supporting them at the box office.
Watching them on DVD isn't enough.

Don't they get the revenues of my spent DVD dollars ?? I spend more money on DVDs than anyone here going to the theater each year... count so far this year: $16,000+... and my "attitude" as you call it, stems from being fooled too many times by sharp ad campaigns that entice me to see something where my expectations far outweigh the final product.
I feel, that what I am NOT supporting is the mega marketing campaigns that movies use to grab viewers before the final verdict of the film is readily known. This usually involves time, often AFTER the film has had it's theatrical run. I don't think you can co-relate $ -> good films... there are mutually exclusive... No, I strongly disagree with your stance.
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[David S]

And a little more on his Nic Cage quote - the two of them apparently had quite a "staredown" at a Los Angeles club very recently, this according to the LA Times.

 

[Mark E J]

Actually I think Penn is a grade a A-hole and most of what he says is BS. Don't get me wrong I think he is a great artist and The Pledge is one of the years best films IMHO. But his personal comments like ones he made against Nicholas Cage or saying that Michael Bay should die of cancer make him sound like nothing more than a common bigot.
I mean who is he to decide what films should or should not be made. So what if not all movies are "intellectual or artistic". Sometimes movies can just be fun. I mean look at Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Die Hard, Jaws, Close Encounters, Aliens, Terminator, Jurassic Park, and dozens more non-artistic blockbusters that have become classics. According to Penn's logic none of these films should have ever been made, and you're dumb and inferior if you enjoy them.
Also let's face it there will always be bad movies as long as people have the ability to make up there own opinion. Remember that for every Momento and Requiem for a Dream there are twice as many art house flops that aren't worth a dime. Just as for every Jaws or Star Wars there is twice as many ID4's and Twisters.
By the way I think his comments about the WTO protesters in Seattle is laughable. Those guys are about as free thinking and in touch with humanity as Tyler Durden's merry band of anarchists.

 

[Gary Tooze]

Further on my respose to Michael Reuben:
Michael said:quote: Watching them on DVD isn't enough. The arthouse circuit needs to show that a good film can still generate theatrical revenues. Otherwise, the funding for riskier stuff will continue to shrink[/quote]
Andrei Tarkovsky April 29th, 1975 excerpt from his speech at the Building Institute :quote: There are so many films now, and they are all so different, that very soon it will be impossible to plan for distribution to cinemas. That will be the beginning of a new phase in the development of film, which is after all the youngest art form, it is only about seventy years old. Films will start to be handed out as cassettes ( or DVDS ? ) people will take them home, every viewer will find himself face to face with the film he particularly likes. And what of cinema, the mass medium, you may ask ? Mass is not a Criterion of quality. [/quote]
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[Edited last by Gary Tooze on September 07, 2001 at 07:12 AM]
[Edited last by Gary Tooze on September 07, 2001 at 07:13 AM]

 

[Michael Reuben]

Gary, you seem to have missed my point.
quote: I feel, that what I am NOT supporting is the mega marketing campaigns that movies use to grab viewers before the final verdict of the film is readily known.[/quote] The films I'm talking about aren't backed by "mega marketing campaigns". If they were, I wouldn't need to urge that we support them. It's precisely the films that are not backed by ad dollars that require the support of people who object to the dominance of such campaigns.
quote: This usually involves time, often AFTER the film has had it's theatrical run. [/quote] So you're saying that you don't want to see anything until after there's been a "final verdict" on whether it's worthwhile? You prefer not to be part of the process of reaching that verdict, but to await the judgment of others? Do you think that 3-6 months (which is the usual gap between theatrical release and DVD release) is sufficient time to render a "final verdict"?
quote: I don't think you can co-relate $ -> good films... there are mutually exclusive... [/quote] I never said that money and good films are "co-related". You just did, though. The blanket assertion that money and good films are "mutually exclusive" is as much of a knee-jerk over-generalization as the lemming-like rush to the latest overhyped blockbuster. And to repeat, once again, in case you still haven't heard me: The films for which I'm urging support don't have a lot of money behind them.
quote: Don't they get the revenues of my spent DVD dollars ?? [/quote] Of course. But box office performance still has a major impact on what future films obtain financing. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.
quote: my "attitude" as you call it, stems from being fooled too many times by sharp ad campaigns that entice me to see something where my expectations far outweigh the final product.[/quote] As I already said, there are plenty of resources (like this forum) to help someone separate the wheat from the chaff. These days, you can't pick up a newspaper or magazine or browse a website without tripping over a film reviewer. Anyone who gets "fooled" by ad campaigns either doesn't care (and you obviously do), or is simply refusing to avail themselves of the available resources.
Tarkovsky's quote is interesting and, in some respects, remarkably prescient. Nevertheless, the world he predicted isn't the one in which we find ourselves living.
M.
[Edited last by Michael Reuben on September 07, 2001 at 09:58 AM]

 

[Marc Colella]

Of course. But box office performance still has a major impact on what future films obtain financing. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.

This is starting to change.
Studios are noticing that some films that are box-office failures, have found new life in the home video market... especially with DVD. With this backup plan of DVD sales, studios may be willing to take more chances with what movies they finance.

 

[Gary Tooze]

Michael, no offense, but your point keeps changing... you are attacking me from two different perspectives now…

Quote:

I'd love to know your definition of what this means, because it obviously doesn't mean what I think it does...
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[Michael Reuben]

I'm sorry you feel attacked, Gary. There's only one point I'm trying to make, and I believe I've been consistent. I happen to think that it's the responsibility of people who purport to care about film as an art form to support smaller, riskier projects at the box office. That's all.
I'm not sure what your point is, other than not liking all or most of what's been released in recent years (which makes me wonder how you can spend so much money on DVDs, but never mind).
M.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

I'll leave Gary and Micheal to their interesting argument. If you'll just give me a minute, I'd like to chime in on my two cents here.
In my years of watching movies/films, I've come across the two ends of the movie lover spectrum, the JP6 who likes square non-OAR non-foreign movies, and the film snob who in his/her remarks can't resist making snide comments about others who don't share the same film tastes. Quite frankly, I'm getting sick of both of them. For this particular thread, Sean Penn falls into the latter category. While his comments ring true about formulaic, Hollywood movies, I find his comments about other people (eg. Micheal Bay or filmmakers like him to die of cancer) to be particularly mean, snobbish, and downright lacking in class and restraint. Before I got to this forum, my idea of movies was what I could only see at the multiplex theater. But then I heard whispers of other movies, fare I've never seen of or heard of. So far, I've taken my chances on nonmainstream fare such as The Seven Samurai, The Third Man, and Requiem for a Dream. And you know how I was won over? By thoughtful, intelligent persuasive arguments that didn't resort to the mudslinging and insulting of others. What is the point I'm trying to make? The point I'm trying to make is the irony behind Sean Penn's statements and intents. People want to be entertained, but they are also open to things of intellectual and of artistic merit. You don't win people over by making rude/insulting remarks. There's a reason why people don't see non-mainstream movies so prevalent in the arthouse circuit (besides the mass distribution and marketing reasons). People are turned off by these movies. Why? Because of film snobbery. For example, let's say person A likes films A, B, and C. Person B likes films D, E, and F, and hates films A, B, and C. Let's say that Person B wants everybody to see films D, E, and F. Film snobbery comes in when Person B goes beyond praising films D, E, and F. He not only says why films A, B, and C are terrible, he also insults the personal character of Person A as being stupid/J6P/ignorant for liking movies A, B, and C. How can you win over people (eg. The often bashed MTV generation) to watch your favorite movies when you resort to insulting them for liking others? From personal experience, I'd like to be able to discover who the hell Tarkovsky, Eisenstein, or Jean Luc-Godard are. If ever I see their movies, they may be the greatest filmmakers known to man. But I'm turned off from watching those movies by said filmmakers because of the attitude of those who praise these said filmmakers. Why should I take the chance of watching these movies by these filmmakers when the film snobs constantly tell you how stupid you are for enjoying fare like Armageddon or saying that you don't know shit about film art since you like Jaws? It's obvious right off the bat that film tastes certainly don't match. Back to the Sean Penn example, he's not exactly being persuasive in his crusade for better movies. It's all been one big domino effect. When Hollywood does create something thought-provoking/intellectually stimulating (read, non-formulaic), the few that do get it insult others for not. Certainly Hollywood would rather stick to movies in which a larger demographic can enjoy. It's not just marketing/distribution that gets people to watch Hollywood movies. It's also the turning away effect from other movies because of film snobbery. If you want to persuade people (eg. the Bay/Bruckheimer fans) to watch anything else, stick to praising those alternative films. Then slowly and assuredly, more people will branch out to watch those alternatives to the cineplexes. And when those films become more and more popular, than the Hollywood machine can take a chance on movies of artistic and intellectual merit.
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[Michael Reuben]

Interesting post, Dome, but I have one word for you:
Paragraphs!
M.
[Edited last by Michael Reuben on September 07, 2001 at 04:19 PM]

 

[Edwin Pereyra]

Well said, Dome.
~Edwin