Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (5 Viewers)

[FanCollector]

I wish I were that strategic, Scott. I gave the wrong answer because I got it wrong. How fallible of me...Intriguing question, Nelson. I'm sure the idea was tempting to them, but the show always exposes paradise as being false or corrupt. They probably liked the idea but didn't really believe in it.

 

[Nelson Au]

Guys,

Onto another topic if you will whilst we wait for Lee's next question. As you know, i am into the props and models used on Star Trek. One of the topics on forums discussed a few years ago was to form a team of Hollywood artists who have worked on the Star Trek spin-offs to get the TOS 11 foot Enterprise filming miniature from the Smithsonian on loan to do a proper restoration and return the paint job back to the way it last appeared in 1968 or when it was last before the cameras. That effort I am hoping happens, but at the same time i am dubious they can:

1. Actually get the permission from the Smithsonian and funding to the do it.
2. Some of the artists they are discussing to do the work are pretty good, but I have doubts they can make it perfect.
3. The model is fragile and in need of repair. Not sure they are qualified to do it.

But I am in agreement with their sentiment and I hope they succeed.

But something new came up within the last 12 hours. I have mentioned the name Paul Olsen before on this thread. He's the artist who actually did the intricate paint job in 1978 on the TMP Enterprise model. Probably the most beautiful filming miniature ever made. The original TMP Enterprise had a very intricate aztec painting scheme done in 4 pearlescent colors. You can barely see it in the model! You can see the very fine panels painted on the hull. Those are the pearl paints. The effects guys charged with actually filming the model realized the beautiful paint job was causing too many light reflections and would make the filming difficult. That's why the space shots look dark. It was an accident, but it made the ship look more real!

Paul Olsen now is mounting a campaign to find the person who bought the model from Christies in 2006 and wants to form a team of the original artists who built the model and restore it with Paul doing the paint job.

Why does it need a restoration? The paint job causes problems for the ILM team in the second and third films so the model is sprayed over for those films to dull the paint and due to battle damage, the original paint job is lost in several sections of the ship from ILM repainting it.

I'm also dubious of this effort and it is a well meaning and terrific one. I hope they succeed too. But 30 years on and these guys won't remember how it looked and there is precious few to little references that survive today to show what the model looked like. The hobbyist model makers today are getting quite good at recreating the paint job actually so there are people who have been able to piece together evidence to do a good recreation. I hope to do it myself soon.

Here's a link to Paul Olsen's video and you guys might find it interesting. The part I find kind of odd on Paul's part is he keeps referring to one of the guys there as the guy who designed the Enterprise. And the guy he refers too is not the guy. The guy he refers to probably had a hand at contributing ideas and mostly designed the model itself and the structure. But I could be wrong. The guys who did design her is of course Matt Jeffries who did an initial design for Star Trek Phase 2, followed by Andy Probert and a few others who did design work on the Enterprise for the movie. I'll have to research that more and that guy could have really contributed more then I realize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5no8BIj_ZC4&list=UUy_Kubq52WiDeYVzz1VMR2A

 

[FanCollector]

Interesting video. Honestly, the idea makes me a little nervous given a few things he said. He talks about "all new" electronics. If he just means new fixtures to replace the exact same old ones, that's fine, but he didn't exactly say that. Of greater concern is what you caught about Richard Taylor. Taylor didn't design the Enterprise and he wasn't part of the discussions on the series. He was part of the design team of TMP, but was not on the movie for the whole duration and there is some dispute over what he actually contributed. Not in dispute is that he had tried to make major changes in Jeffries's original design until he was overruled. Is he really the guy who needs to be on the restoration team? But it is a nice idea. Maybe it will turn out well. Olsen seems like a good salesman, so maybe he can manage it.At the same time, it does seem like a more problematic situation than the proposed restoration of the original ship. Some fans might argue (and I'm not necessarily among them, but I see the rationale) that the restoration Olsen is proposing would do historically significant damage to the ship model as it appeared in important and iconic films later on. The fact that they kept using the same model makes a historical argument very complicated. I don't know how to decide at what moment the movie Enterprise achieved its ideal state. I suspect there would be some disagreement.With this subject in mind, how many different ship models can you recall from the series, apart from all the Federation starships which were reworkings of the Enterprise model?

 

[Nelson Au]

Lee, the historical aspect of the state the model is a very important point that I meant to include above. You are right on about that! The model makers at ILM did quite a bit of "damage" literally and figuratively to the model during the filming of Star Trek 2, 3 and 4. It also looks like it got a walloping in Star Trek 6 too. So it now bears the markings of the Enterprise A nomenclature. And the "strongback" section (the grey parts on the secondary hull where the dorsal and engine pylons attach) are no longer their original color. Other areas of the paint job are also altered.http://www.mutara.net/Christies/detail%20models/Enterprise%20A/IMG_1817.JPGI'm of mixed opinion. I really want to see the model in the TMP livery. But again, historically, it now is the Enterprise A livery. And so there would be those in the camp to leave it alone. The current owner of the model could feel this is how the model appeared in the last film, so it should stay that way. It would also retain its provenance that way. I suppose if the restoration is document as Paul will be doing and the work will be by the same artists, provenance remains. There is an interesting proposal made by a fan in reaction to that video on YouTube. He suggests that they simply rebuild the ship from scratch. That's a lot harder, but it won't hurt the original. I like that idea. I suppose the ill fated 1991 restoration of the TOS Enterprise 11 foot model is a good lesson. That guy didn't have good reference material, and or he felt the model needed his artistic additions. And that model had some other work done to it in the 1980's by the Smithsonian that were not very accurate either. I could go on and on about this topic.....Lee, "That's a Klingon ship!" There is the Klingon ship model. And of course the Romulan Ship.

 

[Ockeghem]

Lee,I'm not sure these are what you're looking for with regard to your question.

Aurora (a Federation ship -- but is it a reworking of the model?)
Botany Bay
FesariusTholian ship(s)
Woden

 

[FanCollector]

Yes, you both have the idea. I just didn't want endless variations on Constitution-class starships looking the same. I realize that my wording did leave some ambiguity in that the Woden is just footage of the Botany Bay and the Aurora is a jazzed-up Tholian ship, but there aren't so many of those, so let's count them anyway.

 

[Nelson Au]

"Aye, and ion powered to boot!" Kara's ship from Spock's Brain.There's the Galileo Seven of course.

 

[Nelson Au]

Are you accepting the cube that Balok and the Melkot's buoy they leave lying around for innocent ships to encounter?

 

[FanCollector]

I am in an accepting mood. They propelled themselves through space, right?Six for Nelson and Five for Scott.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Interesting and difficult subject about any restoration efforts to the Enterprise models. I'm more inclined to leave the originals as they are taking only the necessary steps to preserve them and do new rebuilds.

 

[Nelson Au]

Thanks Lee! Lou, it is a tough subject. Like restoring a historical house or car. Once you touch it, you remove all the original paint and finishes with new and modern materials. It was wise that the Smithsonian did not allow the top of the original saucer to be re painted on the 11 foot TOS model. Sections of the motion picture model's paint job remains, though misted over with dull coats. At least there's original paint left to use as a guide if they built a new one. I can imagine with modern CAD tools and processes they could build a better and lighter model. But the cost would be enormous!

 

[Ockeghem]

Lee,I think I'm going to push the limits of your accepting mood. How about the Columbus and the Galileo? They aren't starships, but they are Federation ships.

Christopher's aircraft
Doomsday Machine
Nomad's ship
What of Lazarus?

 

[FanCollector]

Nelson already claimed the Galileo. But using the Woden precedent, I'll credit you with the Columbus. The Doomsday Machine also seems fair, given the buoy answers.Bluejay 4 and Lazarus's ship were not filming models, unless I am mistaken. Since the question was inspired by the model-making discussion, I'm trying to keep it to those.Let me think more about Nomad...must reevaluate...For now, seven to six for Scott.

 

[Nelson Au]

It would be cool had the Romulan ship model survived to this day. And I don't believe I have ever seen the model for the Fresarius. Though it did exist The Tholian ship exists still as does the Klingon ship.Space Station K-7 was a filming miniature. Though it wasn't a self propelled vehicle such as a starship. Though it must have had some reaction control propulsion capability.

 

[Ockeghem]

Sorry I missed Nelson's catch of the Galileo. I was so intrigued (seriously) by his "Aye, and ion powered to boot!" quote that I missed the second line in that post.

 

[Nelson Au]

How about the spaceship Yonada.In thinking about the question, they sure got away with not showing ships a lot! The Antares was never shown. The Thasian ship was an optical. The Orion ship was an optical too. As was Harry Mudd's cargo ship! Even the Klingon ship in Friday's Child was a blip on the screen.

 

[FanCollector]

Well, now we have a problem! Yonada was my last one, and that brings us to a 7-7 tie. Scott had Nomad, which was arguable but then Nelson had K-7, which is arguable for a different reason. I'm calling this one a VERY hard-fought draw. Whoever has a question can go next.And yes, Nelson, in thinking of the question I noticed the same clever avoidance of using models. (Though perhaps none as entertaining as Bele's ship...)

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Saw the Thasian ship tonight when I watched 'Charlie X.' Robert Walker was great in the episode and in these early episodes the ship feels so alive with all the extras walking the corridors and carrying out their daily tasks.

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,Please feel free to take the next question.

 

[FanCollector]

You're so right, Lou. Charlie X is a particularly vivid example but most of the first 9 episodes convey that feeling of a crowded, busy ship. (Have you read the Mad Magazine Star Trek Musical? At one point, Mr. Spock announces that he has completed a check of ship's personnel and he has discovered that, of 480 [sic] crew members aboard, 475 do absolutely nothing. Kirk then goes on to sing a song about how they only seem to do nothing and, in fact, play the vital role of dying suddenly so that the real stars never have to.)