Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (5 Viewers)

[Ockeghem]

Lee,A few moments ago, I had that episode in my hand. But I think I'm going to watch "Lieutenant!" instead tonight. I've always loved the music from that one.

 

[Nelson Au]

You got all that, eh, Scotty?Yes, I missed that one too, good one. We are up to 10 instances of Kirk as the negotiator! Scott, that episode has a great Kirk speech!I have been indulging in the TOS sound track set, so I'll make a post in the music section.

 

[Ockeghem]

Agreed Nelson. I love that speech as well.Hey guys,The Shat is on The Late Late Show With Craig Ferguson (app. 12:35-1:35) tonight (about an hour from now). I am going to watch it. I just thought I'd let you know.

 

[Nelson Au]

I'll check it out Scott, thanks! Wonder what he's promoting.

 

[FanCollector]

They always have fun together. I think Shatner likes visiting there because Ferguson treats him like a regular person. I have a few candidates in mind for "Lieutenant!" But given your endorsement of the music, I'll guess Who Mourns for Adonais?

 

[Ockeghem]

It was a Fireside chat, and it occurred right at the beginning of the show. So, it was in effect a "Shat Chat."

I have a question to ask (not a trivia question) with regard to Patterns Of Force. I'll write more about it tomorrow.

 

[FanCollector]

"Lieutenant!" I get it now.

 

[Ockeghem]

"Lieutenant!" I get it now.

Lee,

How long must I put up with this? You hold an A-7, bubba.

What I wanted to mention about Patterns Of Force occurs right after Kirk and Spock beam down to Ekos. Spock is making some comments about the architecture, and then he says "Interesting." This is before we see the appearance of Isak. Here is the dialogue:

Spock: "The Ekosians are humanoid, so there is apt to be a similarity in architecture. Interesting."

His use of the word "interesting" has never made sense to me. It's almost as if a line were either missing immediately preceding or following that word, spoken (ostensibly) either by Kirk or Spock. To what is Spock referring to when he says it? The next time either of you watch the episode, have a listen to it and please give me your impressions of what you think he's referring to at that point.

 

[FanCollector]

There definitely seems to be a cut following "Interesting." But the editors should have cut that word also. As you say, it doesn't make sense where it is. Spock must have made an additional observation about something he found interesting, but it isn't evident to me what it would have been.

 

[Ockeghem]

Lee,Thanks. I'm pleased that I am not the only one that notices something amiss at that point in the episode.

 

[FanCollector]

Watching the episode, there is no doubt you are right.Nelson, how about some of the mining negotiations? Mirror, Mirror? Friday's Child? Mudd's Women?

 

[Nelson Au]

I never noticed that in Patterns of a Force. I thought he thought it was interesting! I'll pay attention to that on my next viewing. What do we have here Lieutenant? Lee, yes, Mirror Mirror with the Halkins and Friday's Child with the Capellans. I had not thought of Mudd's Woman as that was an emergency and he was bargaining. Was he negotiating with Childress at the end?

 

[Nelson Au]

Guys,On the heels of Harry's great posts in the music thread, I thought I'd post some thoughts after reading the first few sections of the Second Season These Are The Voyages book. I read up through A Second Season and as you said Lee, Cushman makes some very compelling arguments about how successful Star Trek's first season was and how high it ranked, 29 in the total rankings and often in the top 10. If he's over selling the ratings, he's doing a good job! He speaks about how lesser rated shows were renewed for a new season, but Star Trek was higher rated, but didn't get the renewal. What I am likely fuzzy about since it's been years since I've read the old Star Trek books like Star Trek Lives and The World of Star Trek, but I thought the unprecedented letter writing campaign was to save the series for a third year. The book talks about how Roddenberry spoke to Harlan Ellison to spoke to his network to get letters written to support Star Trek for renewal for a second year. While Star Trek was a top ranked series and rank higher then others, it didn't get a renewal for the second season until the last minute. There was the letter writing campaign, the bumper stickers and the on-air statement that Star Trek was coming back for a second year.It's amazing to read this today, that the series, as quoted from an NBC executive, was a real winner and could have a very long run. Plus the high rankings in the ratings. But a short time later, the network was publicly saying the series return was iffy. When it finally is renewed, it was promised the Tuesday 7:30 timeslot. But that was changed due to a Jerry Lewis's show. So Star Trek got the Friday death slot. But again, my fuzzy memory seems to think it got the Friday timeslot in the third year, which was why Roddenberry quit daily producing. And all because Roddenberry was being difficult to work with. And his need to buck authority. Cushman is putting together a pretty clear picture of what was going on. Once we get to the third book, it should be interesting to learn how Roddenberry's fight with the network led to his stepping down from making the series. It's certainly amazing that the series quality, suffers, but sustains through its run.It should be interesting as I start into the episodes themselves and learn of the continuing battles and the working relationships between Roddenberry, Coon, Fontana, and Lucas and Robertson.So Lee, as you asked, I am amazed to read the series rankings. As Harry relates, he tuned away to The Time Tunnel and Bewitched, tracking as the book reports. But Harry is shifted firmly to a Star Trek as the series first year came to a close. So that also tracks with the ranking of the series. I guess that Roddenberry not always listening to Robertson's input is a shame. If only there was a better working relationship with the Network, the series could have had its 5 year run. But then as we said and discussed before, the early end of the series gave it a mythical prominence over time. So maybe no films or sequel series. Or maybe still, but maybe it would have worked out differently. Amazing reading so far!

 

[FanCollector]

One of the hard things about preparing television history is that even when one has access to the documents of the creative personnel, it is much harder to find documentation of the network rationales. It may be a bit of an exaggeration to call Star Trek a "top ranked series." It was doing OK in the Nielsens, but it wasn't a great time for NBC in general, so an OK rating was safer on NBC than on CBS at the time. Also, demographics were not the sole determining factor that they are today, but there was some early consciousness of them and that could only help Star Trek. Cushman singles out particular weeks when Star Trek did well, but for the season average, it was well below Daniel Boone, for example; a show that he says unfairly received an earlier renewal. (Do you recall where it said that Star Trek averaged 29th for the year?) Star Trek probably shouldn't have had to wait as long as it did, but it was not a major hit guaranteeing early renewal by any means. Then, as now, many shows had to wait until May for official renewals. This year, for example, CBS made most of its decisions quite early but the producers of most ABC shows are still biting their nails somewhere in Southern California right now. Cushman makes a convincing case that Roddenberry's relationship to the network affected their treatment of Star Trek, but no matter who was producing it, I don't think its ratings would have warranted early renewals and ticker tape parades at NBC. On the minus side, it was expensive and produced by a difficult guy and on the plus side, it was a prestige show with better demographics among the young and the educated that at least held its own against Bewitched.Where their distaste for Roddenberry probably really caused damage was assigning the new timeslot. The "death" timeslot that led to Roddenberry stepping aside was Friday at 10, in the third season as you remembered. The second season timeslot was Friday at 8:30, which was worse than Thursday at 8:30, but not as bad as 10:00. But Cushman's contemporary sources show that Star Trek almost got an early Tuesday evening slot and that might have let it really take off. Friday night opposite the very popular Gomer Pyle was never going to build Star Trek into a hit. It was just going to let it stay alive, maybe, on a night when NBC was doing very poorly anyway. The big public letter writing campaign was at the end of the second year, but there was a smaller, more targeted one toward the end of the first year. Besides your suggestion that Trek's shorter life made everyone want more, I am mostly glad, seeing the memos, that Roddenberry generally ignored Stan Robertson. A few of his suggestions were helpful (Amok Time stood out to me in particular), but they mostly would have made the stories and characters less complex and memorable. Roddenberry's inflexibility may have resulted in fewer Star Treks, but they were probably better Star Treks.

 

[Nelson Au]

I can see your interpretation of the numbers that Star Trek certainly did well, but it wasn't the monster hit that Cushman seems to be making it out to be.

I looked over the Preface and the first Chapter, A Second Season in the Cushman book. I can't find a specific sentence that said the series was 29th. I was sleepy, so I could be remembering that the episode order dropped from 30 to 29.

Thanks for clearing up the letter writing incident. And that the Friday night second season timeslot was 8:30.

 

[FanCollector]

And of course, we are quibbling over "a question of degree." The big news story here, and I am entirely convinced by Cushman for all the reasons you outlined, is that Star Trek was a decent ratings performer in its first season and even, taking into account NBC's choices, in its second. The story of its abject ratings failure from day one, only being saved first by intellectuals and then by rabid fans, just isn't the case.Lest we forget our trivia question, by the way, Kirk starts off being a ferry boat captain in Elaan of Troyius, but circumstances force him into diplomacy later.

 

[Nelson Au]

I had thought about Elaan of Troyius and initially thought Kirk's role was more of that of a teacher, rather then diplomat. So I looked it upetri's job is as follows: an accredited diplomat sent by a country as its official representative to a foreign country.So by Elaan stabbing Petri, Kirk became the replacement. I stand corrected! Another point for Lee. I agree Lee, the one fact in that section of the book is that the ratings were not the sole factor for the iffy nature of a second season of Star Trek.

 

[Nelson Au]

By the way, perhaps I'll read about it later in the book, but that video that came up recently called The Real Story had an interview with Grant Tinker and I recall it was a very positive interview where he said he loved the series.

 

[Ockeghem]

I missed this recently, but it's Clint Howard's birthday this week.

http://www.startrek.com/database_article/howardclint2

Make that two Trek people whose birthdays I missed recently.

http://www.startrek.com/database_article/pop

 

[Nelson Au]

I saw Little Balok on The Streets of San Francisco yesterday! Last night I read a bit more of Book 2. They were still having issues with the optical effects filming the Enterprise, that's surprising. Yet I have to remember this is 1967 and the state of the art and number of people capable are low.The parts that surprised me a little is the situation with Leonard Nimoy. I don't remember the Justman Solow book discuss how angry Roddenberry was that Leonard was holding out for more money. I thought there were valid points on Nimoy's side. I can see he needed help with all the mail he was getting. Though it just didn't come off as he felt he was the big star because of the popularity of Spock. So after all the negotiating, and calls to Mr. Montaigne, it was a surprise to hear NBC step in and tell them to work it out!And I think it was very interesting that Asimov advised Roddenberry and helped with the situation. I never knew before that it was decided from then on, Kirk and Spock are a team and will be treated as equal characters. That's news. And of course made Star Trek so much the better for it. And then it was nice to read how Justman and the others were so happy with Kelley and promoted him to costar and bump his salary. I remember the olden days when the folklore was that Shatner was the one pushing for that. And even Takei got a raise! I'll resume reading with Nichelle's section tonight.