RP82 480P -> 1080i or 540p (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyG]

The TV maintains seperate internal values (contrast/brightness/colour/tint/sharpness) for s-video and component video input, so the difference you see is likely due to this. For example, the internal 'Sharpness' setting for s-video input is higher than it is for 480i or 480p component video input. To the 'untrained' eye (no offense intended!) this might make the s-video picture appear sharper. Also, the other settings might be different enough to make the picture look better with one input type over the other.

The best thing to do is to get your hands on an AVIA or Digital Video Essentials DVD and determind the correct settings for each of s-video, 480i and 480p component video inputs. This will help level the playing field when making a comparison like this.

 

[Don_Berg]

What model DVD player are you using? If its a newer Panasonic they have very cheap poor de-interlacers now so indeed the interlaced output (svideo) might be better than the progressive output (component) with a cheap model. But if you get a higher-quality Faroudja-based player like the Denon DVD-1600 or DVD-910 you would find progressive(component) far superior. As mentioned you may have the settings for the s-video input different than component, also many DVD players output different black levels for interlaced vs progressive and you have to readjust brightness and contrast for that. So you may not be comparing them equally if you haven't re-calibrated. The newer Toshiba HDTVs also upconvert 480p to 540p and 480i to 1080i, so that might screw things up. I prefer a TV that displays 480p native with no scaling artifacts.

 

[Don_Berg]

What model DVD player are you using? If its a newer Panasonic they have very cheap poor de-interlacers now so indeed the interlaced output (svideo) might be better than the progressive output (component) with a cheap model. But if you get a higher-quality Faroudja-based player like the Denon DVD-1600 or DVD-910 you would find progressive(component) far superior. As mentioned you may have the settings for the s-video input different than component, also many DVD players output different black levels for interlaced vs progressive and you have to readjust brightness and contrast for that. So you may not be comparing them equally if you haven't re-calibrated.

 

[JohnnyG]

The Panasonic players do just fine in progressive mode with material that's flagged properly. With properly flagged flim-based material, it's unlikely that a Faroujda chip would make any difference. More important, the Panasonic's progressive output is super-clean.

The new Toshibas just do a better job processing interlaced video. I see the same results with my Sencore VP300 pattern generator as I do with my Panasonic F85 DVD player.

 

[greg_t]

Unfortunatly, there's still many dvd's that are improperly flagged.

 

[Mark_E]

Can you educate me on what "flagging" means? I have a Panasonic DVD-S55. I've used both the Avia and video essentials DVD's to calibrate the tv for both the s-video and component inputs, however, the s-video remains the better picture. There is a particular scene in "Finding Nemo" which I find is great for comparing the two inputs. I believe it is chapter 26 where the pelican is flying into the harbour and lands on a bouy. The bouy has a sign on it that reads "treated sewage". Switching between s-video and component during this scene gives a clear advantage to the s-video. The lines are so much more clearer. I've tried playing around with the setting to try to get the component picture at least as good as the s-video but have not succeeded. Even if I could get the pictures of each input to be equal, I don't see anyway that I can possibly ever get the component picture better than the s-video. I have tried this on another Toshiba TV (same model)since with the same effect. Can anyone with the HX83 series of Toshiba sets tell me what they are using for input setting and whether or not their component picture is better that their s-video? Thanks.

 

[greg_t]

Can you educate me on what "flagging" means

All DVD's contain flags that tell the deinterlacer how to proplery reconstruct the original film frame for film sourced dvd's. The main job of a deinterlacer is to stay in Film mode as much as possible, that way the film frame is accurately reproduced and you maintain full resolution. When deinterlacing errors occur, the deinterlacer must drop into video mode, whereby you lose resolution. The problem is that many dvd's are flagged incorrectly, which causes the deinterlacer to hiccup and drop into video mode deinterlacing. If all dvd's were flagged correctly, there would be no need for expensive deinterlacing players, but dvd authoring is far from perfect. JohnnyG stated above that the new Panasonics do great with a properly flagged dvd. This is true, however all progressive players with film mode deinterlacing would also do excellent if all dvd's were flagged correctly. Unfortunatly, they aren't.

For example, Lord of the Rings fellowship of the ring has 167 flag errors and The Pulp Fiction SE has 345. This causes flag reading only players to drop from Film to Video mode deinterlacing, where you lose resolution. That's why players that have advanced 3:2 pulldown detection excel. They don't look at the flags, but use their cadence algorithm to perform 3:2 pulldown detection to propely reconstruct the original film frame and stay in Film mode. Advanced deinterlacers such as the Faroudja and many others that have great 3:2 pulldown detection can avoid errors that would be encountered on a player that merely reads the flags. By using the advanced 3:2 pulldown detection, they avoid the errors and can stay in Film mode, where you maintain full resolution. All of this information comes from the Secrets of Home Theater and HIFI, and I have included a link to the article below. The guys who wrote it, Don Munsil and Stacey Spears really know their stuff and used to post on here. hope this makes sense.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ut-1-2003.html

 

[Don_Berg]

Also the Faroudja has a superior video mode with DCDi so even when it drops to video mode it still maintains high resolution so its difficult to detect it. A good video mode is still required though since not all video sources come from film - most TV series episodes get converted to 60field/sec video early and then are edited and video effects are done in the video realm, so the flags are seriously screwed up after that. So a good de-interlacer is a must for all types of sources on DVD.

 

[JohnnyG]

All this is certainly true enough but, when the player drops into video mode, you often see an effect known as 'combing'. With the Panasonic F85, I have seen plenty of combing when my wife annoys me by watching "Sex in the City" repeats yet again on DVD. But I have never seen any combing artifacts on a new-release DVD (which is pretty much all we watch).

So, all these pro-Faroudja comments are certainly true in theory, but to me at least, not really a huge issue in practise. Would I like a Faroudja-based player? Sure would. Am I at a disadvantage because I don't have one? Nope.

Not only that, but like I've been saying here, my Toshiba 46H83 processes an interlaced input cleaner than a progressive input, so I'm not even using the deinterlacer in the DVD player at all anymore.

 

[JohnnyG]

Can anyone with the HX83 series of Toshiba sets tell me what they are using for input setting and whether or not their component picture is better that their s-video?

I haven't tried s-video, but have you tried 480i component versus s-video? The factory default setting for Sharpness (internal to the set) is higher for s-video than it is for component video, so your results from Avia should have the Sharpness control lower for the s-video input than for the component video input.

 

[greg_t]

So, all these pro-Faroudja comments are certainly true in theory, but to me at least, not really a huge issue in practise. Would I like a Faroudja-based player? Sure would. Am I at a disadvantage because I don't have one? Nope.

They can be a huge issue in practice depending on how big of a videophile you are. I don't think that the Faroudja has a huge advantage over other chips while it is in film mode. It has bad edit detection and such, which pretty much all worthwhile players have. It's big advantage, as Don Berg described above, is it's video mode. When most deinterlacers switch from film mode to video mode, you lose half of the resolution due to interpolation. All progressive scan players will drop from film mode to video mode, even when watching film based dvd's. This is due to incorrect flags and breakdown of the 3:2 pulldown cadence.

The first advantage of the faroudja is that it's video mode is motion adaptive. Essentially, a dvd player with a non-motion adaptive video mode throws away half the resolution when switching from film to video mode deinterlacing. The motion adaptive features retains much of the resolution that would be lost. The second advantage is DCDI, which works exclusively in video mode. It works to hide artificats and jaggies that come with the loss of resolution due to being in video mode. So really, why the Faroujda is so good is that it stays in film mode as much as possible, and when it must drop to video mode it does it very smoothly and works to keep the drop and resolution loss from being noticed, and then it switches back to film mode deinterlacing quickly. Again, to us average users, it may not be a huge deal, but to videophiles, it can make a big difference.

 

[Paul_Ptaaty]

Actually, the Silicon image Sil504 stays in film mode better than the Faroudja FLI2200. However, once into video mode it does not deinterlace as well, this leads to higher detail on more scenes but also greater potential for combing errors.

For film I like the sil504 slightly better (what 95% of what I watch, 100% for critical viewing), but for video the FLI2200 has a definate advantage (IMHO).

Players I have owned with the chip sets: Sil504 on my Denon 2900, FLI2200 on the Panny RP62.

 

[JohnnyG]

They can be a huge issue in practice depending on how big of a videophile you are.

You mean how big of a technophile you are. A 'videophile' gets lost in the movie - whether it's on a 12" black and white set with a snowy picture, or a top-quality movie theater! It's the technophile in a person that gets all upset when there's a miniscule glitch in the picture.

 

[MichaelOD]

in all fairness, everyone on this forum has a little bit of both - some more than others; but that's what makes the opinions on this forum so informative!

i'm with you Johnny on getting lost in a movie, when having a marathon over at my house the other day for the lord of the rings, i was completely lost in the world of middle earth. however, i really enjoy knowing what it takes to have the best technical setup that my money and current equipment will allow.

the best of both worlds i say!

 

[Mark_E]

My DVD player is currently sending a 480i signal. I turned the progressive off. The s-video is still better than the 480i component signal. I set the inputs settings using both Avia's disk and video essentials. The results still remain the same.