Receiver VS. PreProcessor as a Prepro..Which and why? (1 Viewer)

[Gil D]

While I would expect a $1.5K pre/pro like the Rotel 1066 to be a better design and build than a $1K Denon 380x, I can't really say that I would expect the Rotel to be better in this regard to a flagship like the Denon 5800/5803, Onkyo 989, or HK 8000.
Take a look at the guts of the Denon 5800 for example.
http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdf...0LIT16PAGE.pdf
The hardware looks like alot like what goes into a separates pre/pro. Granted the amp section may not have separate power supplies for each channel, but I don't believe the pre/pro section suffers from it as it's on a separate power supply.
I just don't buy into the fact that a receiver can't be as good as a pre/pro. Why would B&K use the same preamp in the Ref50 as the 507? Rotel I believe may be doing the same thing with their 1066 pre/pro and 1055 receiver. And with more receiver's shutting down ancillary circuits in their Direct mode their is less reason to believe that interference from other circuits is a big problem.

 

[Clinton McClure]

While my Yamaha receiver works very well as a pre/pro, I do wish to upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro in the future because to my ears it sounds better.

 

[Marty Neudel]

There is absolutely no question that separates give you more options. For instance the Mark Levinson Number 30 a/v pre-amp has greater upradablility than any other product I have seen. However, its $30+k price tag puts it out of my league.

As your budget goes down, things are not so clear. The cost of duplicating cases, chasis and power supplies occupy a major part of the under $1k budget. Along with economies of production and marketing, it makes the receiver more viable for features, flexibility and build quality.

Please note that this is a sweeping generaliztion, and does not take into account your own personal preferences.

Marty

 

[Yogi]

For amps/prepros in the 1K range I think it is better to go with a receiver esp for people who dont want to get a full blown separates system and who want to upgrade gradually by adding amps first and then getting a separate prepro down the line. In this range I think the prepro sections of recievers like the HK 525 and the Denon 3803 are competent enough to compete with the likes of Outlaw 950 and RSP1066 (1065?) in terms of sound quality and flexibility.

When one starts getting in the range of flagship receivers in the 3.5K range I think going full separates makes more sense than the receiver route even though it might cost a few 100 $$$ more. In that range you can get the full benefits of separates system.

MHO.

 

[NickSP]

In this range I think the prepro sections of recievers like the HK 525 and the Denon 3803 are competent enough to compete with the likes of Outlaw 950 and RSP1066 (1065?) in terms of sound quality and flexibility.

Yogi, concur fully with that statement. That is exactly the conclusion I reached upon comparing a bunch of receivers and prepros under $1.3K and thus settling for the DA4ES.

 

[John Tompkins]

THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH THAT YOU CAN PUT IN 1 BOX. Something has to give, It is that simple period.

Thats why the H/K avr8000 has only 5 amps in it and weighs 55 lbs and is 20 inches long...

The pre-amp section in some receivers can be every bit as good as some lower priced pre-pros for HT.....Do some blind a/b testing in your room with your equipment and you may be surprised at what you here (when the Sony 4es sounds better/clearer then your 1200.00 pre-pro and you know that just cant be, because you read it on HTF so it must be true)...

It is hard work testing all this different equipment (buying,selling, set up, returning etc,)..and its much easier to read reviews on htf or elsewhere...I have been amazed at what I have heard at times with various equipment...totally different then this board would have lead me to believe...bottom line its just NOT that simple

 

[DarrylM]

Thats why the H/K avr8000 has only 5 amps in it and weighs 55 lbs and is 20 inches long...

That is by far an exception, not the rule, however. For instance, the Denon 3802 weighs just over 36 pounds. The Onkyo 797 weighs in at roughly 38 pounds. The new Sony ES's weigh slightly more, since they have a much more solid chassis. However, your receiver example illustrates another good point:

The AVR 8000 runs $2,800, and delivers 110 x 5 (8 ohms @ 20 Hz - 20 kHZ with

 

[Yogi]

Consequently, when you start looking at flagship receivers in the $2,500 price range, it would behoove you to at least consider some of the affordable separates packages out there.

Absolutely, I would never consider a flagship at full MSRP. Not in my dreams! But thats just me. Others might disagree.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Now, to be sure, the AVR 8000 will have many more features than either the Outlaw or Rotel combos, and similar Cirrus Logic processing power...

Yeah, but the AVR8000 is OTT for a prepro substitute. A better comparision for this thread is to look at the prepro alone vs receivers for the same cost.
I think Yogi nailed it in his latest comment (edit - 2nd latest comment ). It would seem that below the cost of an Anthem AVM20, a receiver is better value than a prepro due to economies of scale. Above that, the rising cost of the internal amps and the lower production rate makes the receivers less cost effective (as prepros).

 

[Guy Usher]

Seperates are not intended to compete with receivers they are meant to be an alternative originaly designed as a less expensive more flexable way of putting together a sound system, using seperates lets you pick and choose what you you consider is important, lets you use different mfgr componets. I have seen it go from very basic kits to full blown AV Control systems that are in fact a receiver of sorts kind of on steroids, with the variety of seperate componets and receivers on the market, we are all really speaking the same language. I cant think of any combination you might want that you cant get either way. What is a receiver anyway but a compilation of seperate componets designed for the consumer that wants it all in one box, the line is bluring more and more everyday. No more can you answer someones question about what kind of a system do you have with one word like Kenwood or Marantz it is not so simple anymore. There must be hundreds of Heavy receivers on the market today that out perform any seperate componet of only a few years ago, you can almost pick and choose what you want with a receiver. Same for seperate componets.
Still in my mind I think I get closer to what I want with seperates, I dont have near as many features as a 300 dollar receiver has, dont want most of them anyway, dont want tone controls, dont want DSP modes, I dont care that you dont have to use them, I dont want them on my machine period, hard to buy a Flagship receiver like that.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Still in my mind I think I get closer to what I want with seperates, I dont have near as many features as a 300 dollar receiver has, dont want most of them anyway, dont want tone controls, dont want DSP modes, I dont care that you dont have to use them, I dont want them on my machine period, hard to buy a Flagship receiver like that.

Guy, you just pretty much nailed what I love so much about my new Outlaw 950. There is NOTHING on that machine that I don't use. On my previous receivers and pre/pros I always had to scroll though ridiculous "me too" surround modes like "Jazz Club" and "Hall" - ug! I don't even want them on the processor at all! A front panel A/V input would be nice but is in no way a necessity.

 

[John Tompkins]

Now, for roughly the same price ($2498), you could pick up the Outlaw 950/770 combo,

Darrylm,

Well I must say anybody who would pay 2498 +-200.00 for the avr-8000 would be CRAZY at this time. You can buy avr8000's all day long for about 1250.00 or less(paid 800.00 for mine)..put in this context(street price IS all that matters to me)..You get just as good as a stand alone processer(when compared to 1200.00 pre-pros) Plus more features AND an extra 5 channels of amplifications for the SAME price.

I never claimed receivers internal amps were as good as external)..but heck, they can drive most rear channel speakers with no problem...you can always add external amplification for the fronts etc(which I do)..

One other thing about the H/K avr8000 internal amps that may surprise you and I dont think the Outlaw does it..85 amperes...This thing draws ALOT of juice from the wall, its not just all about the wattage(but dont want to get into amp spec argument)....somebody at AVS forum compared(a/b ed) the 8000's internal amps to his parasound 1205 amps and heard NO difference and he had very nice equipment/speakers to boot...

Pre-pros are great, there just not the end all..I've had plenty of both recievers and pre-pros and will continue to buy either one...(whichever presents the best deal at the time will be the one I buy)

 

[DarrylM]

Good points, John. I've provided some responses, below.

....somebody at AVS forum compared(a/b ed) the 8000's internal amps to his parasound 1205 amps and heard NO difference and he had very nice equipment/speakers to boot...

Will you hear a difference between a receiver and an amp? I suspect that it would really depend upon your requirements. At normal listening levels in a room of moderate size, a well-designed receiver will probably deliver all of the power you will ever need. You wouldn't necessarily notice a difference in performance until you "cranked it up." Though, you might spot moments of strain during especially dynamic moments in the source material with a conventional receiver that you wouldn't necessarily hear with a separate amplifier, even in a moderately sized room. I guess that would fall under the category of "headroom."

 

[Yogi]

One other thing about the H/K avr8000 internal amps that may surprise you and I dont think the Outlaw does it..85 amperes...This thing draws ALOT of juice from the wall, its not just all about the wattage(but dont want to get into amp spec argument).

With no disrespect to the HK 8000's internal amps (I really think HK understates its amps) I believe beyond any doubt that the Outlaws amps will surpass the HK's amps performance wise. I dont know how much max power the HK draws but the 770 draws a max of 1800W which is more than what the ordinary 15 amp wall outlet will deliver. If someone knows the max power draw on the 8000 we can sort which amp is better powerwise. Also specifying an instantaneous current rating of +/- 85 amp doesnt mean much as it doesnt tell how long that instant lasts. It could be for a few seconds (I highly doubt it) or could be for a few milliseconds (more than likely). So it doesn't tell the whole story but is yet another tool in the marketing guy's arsenal.

 

[John Tompkins]

Darrylm and Yogi,

I'm not dissputing or even making the case that a receivers internal amps are as good as external amps..Heck, Im an amp freak ,heres a few that I have owned...parasound 885, 2205a, mccormack dna 1, carver 806, carver thx753, carver 1.0, hk 2.1, hk, 1.5, hk 5800, sampson 700, rotel 985, sherbourn 1500 older model, chiro c-300, c-500, nht sa3, sherwood 9080, citation 7.1 and 5.1 plus others...

The point was that some receivers internal amps are plenty good to drive rear speakers in a ht setup (and can drive many efficient front speakers to boot, depending on room etc )..So Since your basically getting 5/7 amps for free anyhow when compared to the price of some pre-pros, whats not to like..

PS..The high current draw of H/K amps is NOT a marketing gimick..Yes, a good amp doubles in wattage all the way down to 2 ohms but it is also important what kind of current the amp is drawing as well(among other factors)..The 8000's internal amps are pretty dam good and underated to boot.

One last thing, the 1250.00 selling price I quoted for the 8000 IS from an authozied dealer

 

[Yogi]

PS..The high current draw of H/K amps is NOT a marketing gimick

Why else would they specify the max current draw as +/- 85. I think thats quite ambiguous for the common consumer. Does that mean it's the max swing it will draw or does that mean peak to peak rating? Is it the total for all channels driven or is it on a per channel basis, like every other power specification?

Now it can be interpreted in one of several ways. If its the peak rating for all channels (I dont know what -85 would mean) then it comes down to 17 amps peak per channel, which is nothing to boast about as even the weakest Parasound 855 (85wx5) does 30 amps peak per channel. If its per channel then even the most powerful Parasound 2205 (220wx5) can't touch it at 60 amps peak per channel. If its the rating going from max to min like in a peak to peak sense then the max current draw is only half of 85 and then the current specs would all drop by a factor of 50%. So you see their specification is quite ambiguous, IMHO.

Having said that I agree that HK underrates their amps and like you mentioned for a price of $1200 from an authorized dealer, its a steal.

Peace.

 

[John Tompkins]

Yogi,

I just called harmonaudio to ask these specific questions about thier current ratings on the avr8000 and the service guy didnt even know if it was per channel or all channels driven, also if it was peak to peak etc...so you may be right ?...anybody know for sure how harmon kardon comes up with their current ratings ?

 

[randy bessinger]

I have in my main audio/video room a B&K Ref 30 and B&K 7270 amp. In my second room that I use mainly for TV, records and some recordings, I have a Pioneer 811 used as a pre with a NAD phono preamp for records, Outlaw 750, and NAD for the seven channels. Mainly got the 811 to see how the newer formats sound PL2 etc. It works great. It would be hard to compare since they are in different rooms with different speakers. It seems like a lot of the discussions about the advantages of a dedicated prepro are pretty subjective. I guess it depends on how much you trust the person's opinion.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Yes, a good amp doubles in wattage all the way down to 2 ohms but it is also important what kind of current the amp is drawing as well

Doubling down REQUIRES that an amp deliver high current to a low impendance load since the maintaining the voltage will cause more current to be drawn as impedance falls.

 

[Brent M]

Has anyone on here ever added an external amplifier to a Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX(or VSX-49TX) receiver and if so, what were your results? I already have the 47TX and I'd really like to use it as a preamp/processor with a new external amp without having to buy a new pre/pro as well. I know a lot of people have said that a receiver can't match a dedicated pre/pro in terms of performance, but I don't know if they have ever tested this theory with the 47TX which is a very well constructed piece of equipment. Any thoughts?