Professional Calibration? (1 Viewer)

[Ron Boster]

I didn't read this whole thread, but a word of warning to those new to calibration and tweaking...

If you are going to do it yourself....meaning entering the hidden service menu....read, study and think through what you are trying to accomplish and adjust. A couple of dry runs through the AVIA oe VE disc using the reg adjustment to understand where your TV needs adjustments, then do the research on each problem and the rec. adjustments...here, AVS forum and home theater spot are all good sources. LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANT DO NOT CHANGE ANY OF THE ORIGINAL/FACTORY SETTINGS IN THE SERVICE MENU WITHOUT WRITING THEM DOWN FIRST. (sorry for shouting, but the HT highway is littered with members whose TV looks like crap because they didn't document first).

Bottomline: Have a certified ISF tech cal. your TV,FP etc. For the price of one component, all of your source materials will look their best, because the projector is reflecting at it's top performance. It's like upgrading the entire video side of your system.

 

[MichaelFusick]

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hot...?ArticleID=124
Here is a great link about calibration

 

[Levesque]

It is no surprise that even a "lowly" Panasonic 47" 16:9 RPTV when fully tweaked out, will continually outperform any RPTV on the market OOTB no matter the cost ... be it $4k ... $5K.

Very interesting thread here. Those 2 quotes bring a very important question to my mind. Why choose a particular brand of TV at all, when an ISF professionnal calibration can take the "lowly" panasonic to the Pio Elite level OOTB?

Why not settle for the "cheapest" (I mean the "quality" one from Mit Tosh HIT and PIO...) RPTV and simply have it ISF calibrated?

This will end all this stupid Pio rule, Hitachi rule, X Y Z brand rule.

When you can have a Toshiba HDX82 for a lot less then the top Hitachi, why spend money on the Hitachi, if they will end up having the same performance after an professionnal calibration?

Hope MichealTLV or Gregg could help me here. Because I really don't understand why we argue so much over all the different brands, if they all end-up looking almost identical??

 

[Gregg Loewen]

Lev,

You make an excellent point which I agree with!! However, each set will still have some differences, esp when it comes to feature and input sets. However, most consumers (and most enthusiasts) dont want to spring for a full setup and calibration.

As an FYI, I charge $475 for a newer Panny (setup, 1.5 gray scales, and color decoder work).

Regards

Gregg

 

[Levesque]

So, Gregg, if I understand you well, you are saying that we are paying sometimes high premium for only some "feature" and imputs set? But PQ wise only, we should go with the best priced RPTV from any of the biggest players out there, and with the money we save, have it professionnally calibrated?
Coming from a professionnal like you, that have so much experience on the field, it's quite a statement!
It should be an official FAQ!!!(LOL)
BTW, I had my Tosh 65HDX82 ISF calibrated, and WOW! I think you could charge 2 times more money to ISF calibrate a TV, and it would still be worth it! (shut, don't tell anyone!)

 

[MichaelFusick]

All RPTV's respond well to calibration.

There are still differences with models though...

To use your example, we can compare a 47' Panny to a new Model ELITE.

The reason why the ELITE costs more is:

Better cabinet contruction
Better anti-glare screen (removable in owners manual)
Much better greyscale, focus, and quality comming out of the box
Nicer remote.
Better stretch mode
Much better line doubler in 480P mode.
Much, much better upconversion in 1080i mode this year.
Better speakers and sound
Better on screen menu
More inputs
It has DVI
Way better user level convergence screen
Over all better attention to detail.

With a full calibration by Gregg or MichealTLV (MichealTLV even owned on of these before he upgraded to a projector)sure the Panny would have a great picture for DVD movies, but it would still not be an ELITE overall.

 

[MichaelFusick]

Of coarse we could do the same comparo for any other RTPV's too... thus the reason why these forums are fun, and so much talk is about them.

If there was only 1 choice, then none of use would be here.

Also, most people won't calibrate ISF style ever..

SO,

Simply based on OOTB performance there is a hierarchy of RPTV's based on performance, features, and price.

When calibration comes into play...everything changes because a 50% model A against a 95% Model B is not really a great comparision, or a fair one either.

Only way is to fully calibrate both models and side by side test them...like some magazine's get a chance to do, but we never would

 

[Levesque]

Only way is to fully calibrate both models and side by side test them...like some magazine's get a chance to do, but we never would

We don't have that chance. But we are lucky, because MichealTLV and Gregg, and other calibrators are tweaking those every day, it's their work, so they got "that chance". So we can believe them when they say that all the good sets are almost identical after a good professionnal grade calibration. Because they see those sets before and after, and from all the major brands. So those pro calibrators do what reviewers do in magazine then!

 

[MichaelFusick]

So, you are implying they are a hierarchy of TV when we talk about OOTB performance, but that this hierarchy almost disappear after a professionnal calibration?

No,

NOt exactly.

Using the example from above, even though the calibrated panny 47" might have a smokin' good picture on DVD..

It would still lack the things that make the ELITE an ELITE.

Calibration will not change the stretch mode, or the upconversion, or the cabinet, remote, features, or the inputs.....

Calibration simply takes a set as close to a verifiable standard for picture quality as possible. Nothing more.

It does not transform a set into another.

Also, calibration even changes and differs:

Example: Last years model pioneer ELITE had red push that was not correctable, nor a correctable color decoder, so after calibration it will fall short in the area compared to others.

ALso, Calibration will not help what it can not fix, like a locked color decoder and poor upconversion in Toshiba.

Nor, it can not help a poor stretch mode in Hitachi.

Calibration is great, but it does not change the world.

 

[Levesque]

Calibration will not change the stretch mode, or the upconversion, or the cabinet, remote, features, or the inputs.....

I know all this. I was refering to PICTURE QUALITY only. I know calibration won't change a cabinet. LOL. (maybe if the ISF calibrator is a carpenter, then you can ask him to "calibrate" the cabinet...)

I think we buy a TV to look at it. Some people look for a nice cabinet, good remote, etc. But people hangin-out here are more enthusiactic, and want yo know how to improve PQ quality. The thread here is about professionnal calibration, so we are talking about calibrating the picture.

And my point was that, after a good professionnal calibration, the picture quality of all the good sets out there will be very near each other. Even, like you say, the poor upconversion of the Tosh (last year model only, on this year models it's almost impossible to see or even notice... go see Keohi site), will be so minimize by the professionnal calibration, that's it's not even of consideration here.

I think that people coming here for information should now that even a "cheap" set can look like a "great set" with the help of those highly professionnal ISF calibrators.

I was talking of picture calibration.

 

[MichaelFusick]

And my point was that, after a good professionnal calibration, the picture quality of all the good sets out there will be very near each other. Even, like you say, the poor upconversion of the Tosh (last year model only, on this year models it's almost impossible to see or even notice... go see Keohi site), will be so minimize by the professionnal calibration, that's it's not even of consideration.

My Point was that there are things that professional calibration can not correct or minimize.

Poor Toshiba upconversion is not corrected by calibration, and is not "minimized by the professional calibration that it's not even a consideration"

It is one of the things that can not be fixed by professional calibration, just like the Elite's red push and Hitachi's stretch mode.

 

[Levesque]

Poor Toshiba upconversion is not corrected by calibration, and is not "minimized by the professional calibration that it's not even a consideration"

Don't take this personnally, no offense meant at all. But did you ever perform a professionnal calibration on a TV? Are you registered at the ISF site? I don't see your name there.

So how do you know we can't minimize this theorical "smearing of details" after 520 lines of resolution? I would really like to hear form MichealTLV or Gregg on this matter here, because they probably already calibrate some HDX82.

Gregg, do you really thing we should discourage people from buying the new HDX82 line because of this poor upconversion? In real life, after doing your professionnal calibration, do you ACTUALLY see this problem? Is it something you cannot almost eliminate or minimize with a good calibration? Should I send back my 65HDX82?

MichelTLV? Gregg? Is MichaelFusick right here? If it's not actually fixable, is it really something we can see in real life?

MichealFusick I know your position on this subject pretty well. I would like to hear an answer from someone that actually have seen, work with, evaluate, try to fix, the problem with a real HDX82, and not just talking about something they have read somewhere.

 

[Ron Boster]

Mike:

I'm sure what Levesque meant to say is ...

I appreciate all the extra effort you put into answering my questions. Your opinion is valid and greatly appreciated. Anyone else have some thoughts on this subject? Maybe an ISF tech?

Have a great holiday in the lower 48!

 

[Gregg Loewen]

Ron thanks for the words!!

Lev and Mike...please play nice (thanks in advance).

I am in agreement with both of you somewhat. The upconversion thing is an issue but to be quite honest I can not notice it unless I am using a resolution test pattern so for me it is a non issue. It is not affected by a calibration, the same resolution will be there before and after.

Regards

Gregg Loewen

 

[Levesque]

to be quite honest I can not notice it unless I am using a resolution test pattern so for me it is a non issue.

Voilà! Exactly my point. I think we agree here Gregg. A test pattern doesn't tell everything. In real life viewing, it's a non-issue.
Have a nice day all. Morale of the story. Those ISF professionnal calibrator are doing an awesome job, and I really hope everyone could have access (or hear of...) to this kind of calibration. When you spend so much money on a set, it's good to know those guys can make it perform at 100%.

 

[MichaelFusick]

Have a nice day all. Morale of the story. Those ISF professionnal calibrator are doing an awesome job, and I really hope everyone could have access (or hear of...) to this kind of calibration. When you spend so much money on a set, it's good to know those guys can make it perform at 100%.

I agree that ISF is worth it...

 

[Joe Valha]

I just bought a Mitsu 65711 and didn't think twice about getting it ISF Calibrated. Yes, with the money I spent on the TV, spending another $300 to get it to look right seems like a lot, I want the best picture/sound I can get.

 

[Chad B]

As a relatively new ISF calibrator (I've calibrated maybe 25-30 sets) I believe there are major differences in sets even after calibration. There's often one issue or another that can't be adjusted for.
A Pioneer (non-Elite)I calibrated recently squashed the edges of the picture in 1080i mode. I had to slightly zoom the image (increase overscan) to minimize it. Also, the blue gun had poor focus on the left side of the scren, caused by a mechanical misalignment.
A couple high end ($8-10.5K) Mitsubishi's had bad chroma or y/c delay. In the service menu (if you are I2c equipped) you can adjust the y/c delay for the composite or s-video inputs, but not the component. Also, both of them (with different brand dvd players) still had annoying edge "enhancement" even with SVM off and sharpness calibrated.
New Toshiba's have only one grayscale setting for all inputs, because they convert everything to 540p. This means you can calibrate grayscale to be just right with either your HD box or your DVD player, but not both.
Most consumer RPTV's have the blue severely out of focus. The list could go on and on. So far, the most "perfect" RPTV I've worked on is an older Ampro 3300R, which is basically a high end CRT front projector mounted in a rear projection retrofitted cabinet.
But, even with these flaws, the picture after calibration is usually fantastic, because they are things only a calibrator would notice with test dvd's and signal generators. They usually don't call attention to themselves in normal use.

 

[Gregg Loewen]

Hi Chad!

There are many differences in sets after calibration, however the average viewer will not notice most of them.

Pioneer sets have fully adjustable HD sections, but they are a bitch to get correct, you will need a HD signal generator with overscan patterns (The Accupel not the Sencore unit). You might have to make a grid to get it 100%.

Almost all the Mits issues can be adjusted via the service menu or the I2C interface.

You can set 3 separate gray scales all Toshiba sets made since 1999, you just need to know how. Many calibrators know how and choose not to.

Your last paragraph is right on the money..."even with these flaws the picture after calibration is usually fantastic..."

Regards

Gregg Loewen

 

[MichaelFusick]

Gregg L,

What RPTV do you own?

What other hometheater equiptment?