Ported Tumult Build

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by Mattak, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    Some pictures of my ported tumult progress so far. Specs are ~4 cubes tuned to ~24hz

    Pictures

    My custom veneer press [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure what the deal is, but I get some bubbling in the veneer, that's why I'm using the weights to try to keep this from happening. I'm using DAP Weldwood original contact cement (not water based), two coats on each surface applied with a roller. I follow the directions to the T and use a small wood block to put as much pressure as I can sliding it along. Everything seems to go smoothly until a while later I notice some bubbling. Looking back, I think I've been putting it on excessively thick, perhaps. Maybe too thick = too much evaporating gas = bubbling? The last time it happened, though, was about 6-7 days after applying, and it seemed much more due to the veneer absorbing moisture and warping. Lesson learned, I guess - I won't be buying relatively thick "raw" veneer if there's ever a next time.
     
  2. Bob Kavanaugh

    Bob Kavanaugh Second Unit

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    A wood block isn't going to give you the kind of pressure you want to get your veneer to stick and all of the air pockets out. I suspect this is your problem.

    Applying it too thick is also a problem. Just a thin coat on each surface, let it dry to a tacky state, then use a roller from the middle out to get a good bond, and rid of the air bubbles.

    Of course it could be that you're using contact cement inside, and it's altered your thought process [​IMG]

    I hope it all comes out looking and sounding like you want. [​IMG]
     
  3. Mike Keith

    Mike Keith Second Unit

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    Two coats seem like too much to me. If you wait until the coats are dry to the touch then apply with a roller (rolling pin will do) then you should not get any bubbles. My guess is that you used too much glue, you only need to completely cover each surface, and the glue must stick to the surface and be nearly dry before contact, then apply pressure. Pretty much what Bob said..
     
  4. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    The wood block actually seemed to work fine, I never had any pockets immediately after, it took a while for them to form. But, just for good measure I'll pick up a roller to give me some better pressure. I guess my reason for putting it on thick was because the edges of the mdf really sucked up the first coat, and I still believe they need two coats, but I'll try just one for the rest of the panels.
     
  5. Eric Ha

    Eric Ha Stunt Coordinator

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    When I got my veneer from Tape-Ease, their instructions said NOT to use a roller. I did anyway, I got bubbles though :-7 From their website:


    Veneering Tips Using Contact Cement:

    Cut with straight edge and utility knife or scissors
    Prepare to glue your veneer with contact cement. Make sure substrate is free of dust and particles. Lumps will show up. Pre-fit all pieces prior to contacting, use reference marks to line up veneer, always cut veneer to hang over and trim off later. On raw wood, always seal the surface prior to contact cementing with a sealer or contact cement.
    We do not recommend water-base contact cement with veneer. Use solvent-based and we have found that any brand has been good.
    Use a scraper such as a edge of hardwood, not a j-roller. Scrape the veneer after contacted from the center to the outer edges. You can trim veneer edges with the grain with a VIRUTEX Double Edge Trimmer. And across the grain with a utility knife. Sometimes cutting from the back works also.
    10mil is the standard in paper-backed veneers and works very well.
    NBL Veneer or 2ply is a higher quality and has less chance of common problems occurring.
    Use thin wood lattes to hold veneer away from substrate when applying.
    Practice on scrap pieces first.
    Be very careful when sanding not to sand through the veneer.
    Use the right tools for the job. Contact Cement Roller Covers work well and fast.
     
  6. Bob Kavanaugh

    Bob Kavanaugh Second Unit

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    OK then, have fun with your bubbles. Truth be told, contact cement is a terrible choice for veneer. Titebond cold press is the ticket.
     
  7. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    Hey, no need to be a pretentious ass about it. I suppose you know better than a company that specializes in veneer, then?

    Titebond is water based, no? Water warps the sh$% out of my veneer...not something I feel like dealing with. And since when is contact cement a terrible choice for veneer?

    The arrogance of some people on audio boards never ceases to amaze me. Why even bother "helping" if it's such a stress for you.
     
  8. Eric Ha

    Eric Ha Stunt Coordinator

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    "Bob Kavanaugh, Veneer Pro"

    You should print up some business cards. People will be impressed.
     
  9. Bob Kavanaugh

    Bob Kavanaugh Second Unit

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    High five guys! You got me! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. Bob Kavanaugh

    Bob Kavanaugh Second Unit

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    To answer your question Mattak, I'll refer you to my good friends at Woodnet:

    Veneer Discussion 1
    Veneer Discussion 2
    Veneer Discussion 3

    Veneer Discussion 4

    I'm not an a$$, we just have a different way of communicating ourselves at Woodnet, without fear of being jumped on. I truly hope these threads help you and others with veneering problems.

    I guess I'll hold out another year before I post again.
     
  11. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    See, that wasn't so hard, those were actually polite and helpful threads.
     
  12. John t.

    John t. Agent

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    It is ok to apply two coats of contact cement. But you have to let it dry until it becomes transparent (glossy). It usually takes about 1/2 of an hour or more. Then you can put the veneer and apply pressure with a wood block.

    I think this might be your problem.

    If you put the veneer too soon, the parts where the contact cement hasn't dried, won't bond very well, creating therefore, the bubbles that you are getting.

    BTW, nice box. Can't wait to see the finished product.
     
  13. Joey Skinner

    Joey Skinner Second Unit

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    I've had no problems with contact cement and veneer. I use two coats on both pieces, let it dry, apply the veneer and press it down using a wooden rolling pin (use a scraping motion, don't let it roll). If you do a good job with the initial placement of the veneer it should press down easily and be stuck fast. Disadvantages, it is smelly, messy and unforgiving. I've also use the iron on glue method.
    Many people swear by this method(excerpt found in Bob Kavanaugh's links above):
    "You can also use the iron-on process. Both the back of the veneer, and the plywood substrate are coated (with a brush) with a 90/10 solution of tightbond wood glue and water. This mixture is allowed to nearly dry, then the veneer section is ironed onto the plywood. This is a tedious process, but will result in the strongest bond available withought a bag press. Used by speaker cabinet makers for years."
     
  14. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi Joey,

    So far so good on this box using contact cement. I tried the iron on wood glue in the past, but I used elmers carpenter's glue (yellow). I didn't thin it out, and I only put on one heavy coat on each piece, and I ended up with poor results. I apparently didn't use enough glue, since I couldnt' get it to stick down everywhere. In the process of trying to get it to stick I ended up discoloring the veneer with the heat...not horribly, but it made a noticable darkening in that side of the veneer.

    I'll have to give other methods a try in the future. The cold press method seems to be what people suggest at the links Bob suggested, but this method seems to have drawbacks as well, especially when doing large speakers...need lots of clamping, materials to act as the press, etc.
     
  15. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    Well, so far so good. 3 coats of deft clear wood finish lacquer on and it's looking great [​IMG]
     
  16. Rob Formica

    Rob Formica Stunt Coordinator

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    Far from being an expert myself... veneering isn't as easy a job as many would be lead to believe. I think most methods have the positive and negative points.


    After having had several people I know running into problems (bubbling from water evaporation) with the iron on tightbond method... I came across several posts on woodworking forums recommending contact cement with the wood block.

    Vacuum press seems to be the most recommended technique, but who could afford the expense for the occasional project?

    Mattak, have you gotten rid of the bubbles you got... or they settled on their own?

    From what I've read, there is no right of wrong answer.
    Rob
     
  17. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    Rob,

    I haven't experienced any bubbles on this project. I was speaking of my last veneering experience using the same veneer & contact cement. This time I tried as hard as I could to put a lot of pressure on the surfaces after applying the veneer. I used a smaller wood block than I did before to achieve more pressure per square inch, and each time left it overnight with the weighted board on top of the freshly veneered surfaces. I also picked up a small roller and used that after the wood block. It's a small, hard rubber roller which seemed to work well.

    Now I just need to perfect the application of 3 coats of lacquer...it gets really hard to apply the 3rd coat without any runs/drips on the vertical sides :b
     
  18. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    All done, more pictures posted on at the original link. I'm very happy with the outcome [​IMG]
     
  19. Rob Formica

    Rob Formica Stunt Coordinator

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    Looks good... I really like the folded slot port. If I were to build another box sub, I'd do the same.

    BTW... You built it entirely in you bedroom? That has got to get dust in all the wrong places... [​IMG]
    Rob
     
  20. Mattak

    Mattak Stunt Coordinator

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    haha...no, just the gluing, veneering, and lacquering, and some light sanding and drilling. Everything else I do outside...no garage [​IMG]
     

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