Pioneer DV-563A Review (2 Viewers)

[Paul.S]

Is anyone using the 563A with the Sony KV-34XBR910?

I'm wanting to learn of any possible aspect ratio control and/or player-set (in)compatibility issues.

-p

 

[Jeffrey R]

Tom,

It has been reported, and I believe confirmed, that the 563 has crossover points of 200Hz (DVD-Audio) and 120Hz (SACD). I tried the 563 for a couple of weeks, and while its performance was quite good for the price, the high crossovers just never sounded "right" on my system. So, I switched to the Denon 2200, and am very happy I made the switch. The Denon has 80Hz crossovers for both SACD and DVD-A, and everything sounds great. Video performance is very impressive as well.

 

[Bob U]

I wish I could afford the Denon at the moment as that would be the solution (I think). How much range does it have on speaker level control?

But if DD and DTS have a 10DB boost on LFE, then that helps this make a bit of sense as well. I can only set my system to be balanced "once" since I use a BFD (and have to set the proc sub level out to just before input clipping at max on the BFD - can not vary it) and my proc does not have level settings for each input. So, I have to choose between proper settings for Videos or Music. I won't try to make "notches" on the sub level control to switch between the two. Too tough to get right - and inconvenient.

If the 563 had better level control and slopes, I don't think this would be a problem. DVD-Audio seems acceptable. SACD is not really worth listening to in my system.

-=Bob=-

 

[Bob U]

Ok, finished trying and adjusting all ten types of discs I can play with this player !!!!

All are very, very good except for both 2 channel and multichannel SACD. No way will a 200 Hz crossover ever sounf right and unlike DVD-A, the sub level in either SACD mode is definitely around 10 dB weak.

C'est la vie. I will have to save for a Denon and restrict myself to buying DVD-A for the time being.

-=Bob=-

 

[Gary DeRoy]

I wasn't going to respond to any more remarks in this thread (since most questions are answered in the review ), but I'll try one more. I've only got a minute to write this, so if it sounds curt, it's not meant to

DVD (Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS), CD and MP3 cross over at 100 Hz and SACD crosses over at 120 Hz, but DVD-A has a crossover at 200 Hz. I don't know what you have for speakers, so I can't recommend settings. If you posted them somewhere else, sorry I missed it.

THX was asked what crossover they suggested for home theater with small speakers and a SW. They said 80Hz. At 80Hz, sounds are still localized, but not bad enough to interfere with imaging while viewing a movie. It was a suggestion, not a specification. It was for HT viewing, not Hi-Fi listening. It was for bookshelf speakers, not small speakers or floor standing (any full range) speakers. Everybody jumped on the wrong assumption and just took off with it, and it seems nobody questioned it. Denon, Pioneer (DV45a and 47ai) and others know this, but it's easier to give consumers what they want than try to educate them.

The 563 was designed for the HTIB crowd. It's crossovers are pretty good for very small speakers; or full range speakers if you put everything to large in the setup.

If you're down 10db with SACD (and ALMOST ALL SACD players are), pump up your SW amp and cut down the SW in your receiver for the digital settings. It should work.

80Hz crossover could be just as wrong for one system as 100 or 120 is for another. To make it right, you need adjustable crossover ranges, and need them for your front, center and surround speakers.

I love the Denon 2900. The 563 isn't a 2900, but don't underestimate it. When I auditioned them, it was a tossup between the 563 and 2200 for sound, and I decided that the right way for me to go was with the 563 and an Outlaw Audio ICBM. Even if I bought the 2900 tomorrow, I'd use it with the ICBM. If 80Hz is the right crossover for all your speakers, you just hit it lucky.

For $250, the ICBM could last you through many players in the years to come. The 563 and ICBM are less than a 2200.

Gotta run...

 

[Bob U]

Hi Gary,

Perhaps your last was written quickly, but I have been under the understanding that Dolby and DTS are 80Hz crossover normally. Prior to DVD-A and SACD that is how I have set up every system.

I *thought* that the 563 treats DVD-A at 100Hz crossover and SACD at 200Hz. That is also how it sounds to me. It also sounds like the SACD sub level is 10 dB or so less than the DVD-A level and they can not be set separately, but share one common setting.

Now, as for me, I have Westalake audio studio monitors down 3 dB at 45HZ and all set to small, crossed over at 80Hz to a HSU VTF-3. Rears are similar, but down 3 dB at 65Hz. These are balanced both by the processor settings and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for the sub. Dolby DVD, Cd's, Rdats, vinyl, cable, FM all sound like they should. DVD-A sounds good, but not quite enough bottom by just a little, though maybe that is the crossover point. SACD multichannel is thin and SACD 2 channel that much more thin. DTS DVD's are hot by 6 or 8 dB below 80Hz and that seems to be the difference between Dolby and DTS sub levels. I don't like it, but it seems to be how it is. And not just with the 563. I wish my proc allowed a separate sub setting for Dolby and DTS, but it does not.

But long and short, nothing I can do better in my setup that I can possibly think of. I have made the best compromises I can come up with and the biggest loss will be SACD that is not enjoyable.

Now, if your post was (is) accurate and DVD-A is a 200Hz crossover and SACD at 120, then I am surprised. It does not sound like that, but rather, the reverse.

"If you're down 10db with SACD (and ALMOST ALL SACD players are), pump up your SW amp and cut down the SW in your receiver for the digital settings. It should work."

Can't do it with a BFD. Output level at the proc for the sub MUST be set below clipping for a max level signal. The BFD does not have input OR output level controls. But the benfits of the BFD far outweigh the loss of SACD.

But why would "almost all" SACD players be down 10 dB on the sub out? Are the Denon's (which is probably my next upgrade)?

-=Bob=-

 

[Toby Wong]

After reading this thread I was expecting to hear quietish bass coming from my SW while playing SACDs... I expected to be able to make a few minor adjustments and be on my merry way.

Well I finally got ahold of a few SACDs and what I heard was *no* sound coming from my SW. I thought it must be the cable so I tried a different cable. Didn't make any difference. I had all speakers set to small with SW on in the dvd settings. I tried a few different combinations to see if it would make any difference. No change. I went into the DVD setting where you can adjust levels, ran through the "auto" feature where it cycles through all of the speakers generating test tones. It skips over the SW during this function (does it do this for you guys?). If I manually go down to SW and play the test tone and CRANK the volume on my receiver(I'm talking +40db here) then I can hear the test tone. So it turns out it is working, but it's extremely quiet.

Am I doing something wrong here or am I actually stuck with this unless I add an Outlaw ICBM?

 

[Brian L]

But why would "almost all" SACD players be down 10 dB on the sub out? Are the Denon's (which is probably my next upgrade)?

FWIW, almost ALL universal players and some non-uni hi-rez players have been low on the .1 channel. If you search here for "Low LFE" you will find lots to read.

The reasons are not clear, but it seems that combing a DD/DTS decoder (which requires a 10dB boost, normally part of the design) with a DVD-A/SACD player which does not leads manufacturers to simply delete it, or somehow fail to include it just on the DD/DTS side.

My experience with a Pio 45a is that ALL formats are low, not just SACD or DVD-A.

How you solve this depends on your rig. Some Denon receivers have a switchable boost available in the menu. Also, some newer receivers and pre/pros (my NAD 762, the Outlaw 950) seem to have more gain the .1 channel, negating the need for additional boost.

That has lead some users to conclude that there is no low .1 channel problem. Its there, its just not everyone will see it.

As for the 563 DVD-A crossover, the 200 Hz number comes from the test they did in S&V.

BGL

 

[Bob U]

Appreciate that explanation, but now almost more confused

For example, DTS out through the Digital output of the 563 sounds the same as my old Toshiba, which is definitely "hot" on the LFE -probaly the 10dB. To solve it, I switch from Digital out to Analog 5.1 out and it seems much closer to right.

Yet the Dolby out through Digital seems spot on.

The only problem I hear is with SACD both MC and 2 CH.

I shall read some more.

And obviously, the cure for all this hassle would be digital outs for all formats and then they would not work with my current processor which would really tick me off.

-=Bob=-

 

[Brian L]

Everything I said about low levels refers only to the 5.1 analog outs. The DD/DTS signals through the digital out are unaffected, since they are decoded in the receiver.

The key is to run calibration tones via the analog outs.

In my experience with the 45a (which I will admit may be different than the the 563) using Avia or the Chesky Ultimate DVD DD tones, the sub tone out the analog connection was low by about 10 dB. The same tones, via the digital connection, decoded by the receiver were not.

Do you have separate channel trims for the 5.1 analog in vs. sources decoded in your receiver? If not, it will be hard to get things dialed in.

BGL

 

[Gary DeRoy]

Bob, the crossover frequency should be set according to your speakers' specs. If yours are down 3db at 45hz, I would think that you'd want 60hz max. for a crossover. Of course, this assumes that you're getting decent sound from your main speakers. For your rear speakers, 80hz would probably be good. If your main speakers have a lot of punch, you may want to run them as Large (full range). Their placement in your room may make up for the -3db, and then some.

Originally in HT, LFE was the only signal designed to go into the SW, hence the term "sub" woofer. With the advent of more and more people getting into HT, and given the space restrictions that many people have, smaller, limited range speakers are now common. Some of them need a crossover at 100hz and some at 80hz. To keep the HT standards up to a certain level, THX suggested main speakers that would, at least, handle 80hz at the low end. The theory, I assume, is that the location of sounds at or below 80hz are hard to pinpoint. I still hold to my assertion that they don't become truly omni-directional until about 50hz. It's easy enough to test for yourself. For Home Theater, though, 80hz would suffice for pretty good imaging. For HT, you place your SW in a convenient spot that's acceptable for level and phase. For music, it should be set between your main speakers.

As a backup to my previous statement, here's a quote from Sound & Vision magazine on the BM for the 563:
Subwoofer low-pass frequency response
–12 dB/octave rolloff above 100 Hz (DVD, CD),
200 Hz (DVD-Audio), or 120 Hz (SACD)

Main-channel high-pass frequency response
–12 dB/octave rolloff below 100 Hz (DVD-Video,
CD), 200 Hz (DVD-Audio), or 120 Hz (SACD)

Also note that the speaker delay settings in the 563 work in SACD mode. On most players (including the denon), it doesn't.

Why are almost all sacd players down about 10db for the SW? I don't know. They say it has something to do with the fact that DD5.1 and DTS boost the LFE by 10db for added movie excitement. Denon wasn't an exception before, so I doubt it is now. You never want to use the built in test tones on the players anyway. Most of them are not accurate, especially the SW tones.

I don't know much about your BFD. I thought it was a microphone feedback device, so I don't know how it fits into your system. Giving an additional 10db boost to your SW amp shouldn't drive it to clipping, unless it's a low power amp or you play the music extremely loud.
Some receivers, like my HK320, let you adjust speaker levels even in the direct 6 channel mode.

 

[Bob U]

Ok, a bit to reply to here

Brian:

"Everything I said about low levels refers only to the 5.1 analog outs. The DD/DTS signals through the digital out are unaffected, since they are decoded in the receiver.

The key is to run calibration tones via the analog outs."

Aha. Then I agree. Digital outs are as expected. Now, when I run VE tones out the analogs, they measure what I would expect as balanced across small speakers and about +3dB on the Sub (with RatShack meter, so close). When I use this for DTS, it is NOT using the built in digital DTS bump and sounds right. The only thing off is SACD.

This is with setting all speakers at -6 and the sub at +6 through the 563, btw. The internal tones on the 563 are useless. Sub level is down 10-15 dB as a guess and the manual says "this is normal for the sub level to be lower than the other channels". Huh???


"Do you have separate channel trims for the 5.1 analog in vs. sources decoded in your receiver? If not, it will be hard to get things dialed in."

No, but not that hard to do with the SACD exception. If it were more modes than that, then I would look to my gear and setup. But since it is ONLY SACD, must be the 563's problem.



Gary:


Actually, the corossover point should be determined also by the slope of the crossover. In "general" a crossover an octave above the 3 dB down point should be about right to account for slope and overlaps. Therefore 80 on my mains is not far off.

I also do not have the ability to set crossover points anywhere in my system other than the sub itself and that is set to use the proc's crossover to the BFD and is set wide open and can not change. Well, it could, but would do more damage than good.

Looong ago I expermimented and chatted here and in other forums. My Fronts are excellent studio monitors and I wanted to run them as Large. I also wanted two subs run in parallel with each Front Main, but that's another story. The result is, after much arm twisting, that I now agree that if a main isn't SOLID down to 20Hz (and few are) run it as small. The end result is MUCH better. YMMV. I am a believer in this.

"...For music, it should be set between your main speakers."

Respectfully disagree. Usually one of the worst locations possible for room modes.

"Also note that the speaker delay settings in the 563 work in SACD mode. On most players (including the denon), it doesn't."

VERY interesting! All the Denon's? I wonder why - or rather why not.

"I don't know much about your BFD. I thought it was a microphone feedback device, so I don't know how it fits into your system. "

Do a search here and Home Theater Guide for "BFD" and see this fabulous tutorial by Sonnie Parker: http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

This is a parametric where all twelve bands per channel can be at ANY frequency. Most only have ovelapping ranges, at best, and a few bands that can be used belwo 200Hz. This has twelve bands that can be used anywhere. It dramatically cleans up a ragged sub response, which most are. Usually they are much more ragged in real live room responses than a HT owner would like to think. And it lists at only $150!!

"Giving an additional 10db boost to your SW amp shouldn't drive it to clipping, unless it's a low power amp or you play the music extremely loud."

No.

The BFD is inserted between the proc sub out and sub amp in. It has to be fed so that the loudest signal ever to appear will not clip. There are no input nor output level controls on the deivce. Raising the proc output on the sub out would drive the BFD into unbelievable digital clipping. Raising the sub level by getting up, twiddling a knob I can not see without moving the sub, then doing it all agian after playing an SACD is out of the question. And once again, EVERYTHING is fine BUT SACD. My system should not require gyrations to get that part right.

I don't think there IS a solution with this PLAYER. My recent posts have not been so much as looking for a solution as they have been in noting my experiences.

Last question:

Are the crossovers and slopes you listed Gary the "standards" for DVD-A and SACD or is Pioneer using their own "standard"? Personally, I think Denon has it right at 80Hz, which is closer to where most folks will have their systems set and more usuable imho.

Need to get some work done

-=Bob=-

 

[Brian L]

Bob,

Wish I had a better explanation for the SACD issue. Having this affect only SACD is somewhat new WRT uni-player set-up issues that I have followed.

I agree with your measurements considering your +6/-6 settings in the 563. I assume you did that intentionally to get the sub +3 vs. the mains? Somewhere along the line, I think there was a post calling for +6/-4 to get the sub channel equal.

Out of curiosity, what software are you playing? The point of the question is that disc authoring is all over the map. Some have ALL the bass pre-mixed into the .1 channel, so have it all in the mains, some have no center....there is no standard at all.

One SACD I have that has all (or most, anyway) bass in the .1 is David Bowie's Heathen (I stumbled upon that one day when the .1 channel cable came loose from the back of my player. Heathen sounded anemic, when it usually has great low end.

Before I found the loose cable, I popped in Hotel California (DVD-A) which has most bass mixed into the mains. It sounded pretty normal. I thought, WTF?

Then I found the loose cable. It was an instructional event, though.

BGL

 

[Bob U]

Brian,

My main test for SACD is the Sony Pink Floy "Money" sampler though I also use Bob Dylan "Blood on the Tracks" and a couple of SACD 2 CHannel only Miles Davis and older jazz discs. Experience is the same with all - though some worse than others, none "right".

If I had a cable problem, I would expect tones not to line up right nor DVD-A to seem right so I discount that possibility.

I'll continue to poke around and learn what I can.The high res audio is at least as important to me as HT, so at the moment this will keep me from buying any more SACD discs. DVD-A is acceptably pleasant, though. I may have to go to a staore or two and see what I can hear for SACD and see if there is the difference I am expecting from another player / system.

-=Bob=-

 

[Gary DeRoy]

This goes back to the 70's and 80's, but all the 3 piece (satellite/sub) speakers I've owned or used strongly suggested putting the sw between the speakers for the best balance. It doesn't have to be centered, just between them. Many of these run the bookshelf speakers as full range, 2-way speakers and the sw has a crossover so signals above (generally) 100 to 120hz wouldn't go to the satellites. Since we're talking Hi-Fi here, we're concerned a great deal with imaging. After all, we don't want the top end of that kettle drum coming from the left speaker and the bottom end coming from the right corner of your living room. Yes, it's not always easy to get the best sound this way. It's ideal. I guess one must endeavor to persevere
But hey, whatever works for you.........

If you're looking to get your crossovers at 80hz, then the 2200 will work for you. If your front speakers should be crossed at 80, I don't see how that could be right for your surrounds. But, the 2200 will cross them all at 80. The ICBM will allow you to cross them anywhere (and change the slope) with different frequencies for main, center and surrounds. It also has individual gains for LFE and SW within easy reach. It's quite versatile and becomes an extension of the player.

As far as I know, the 2200 is also down on sacd on the sw. There was talk about a firmware upgrade for the 2900 to cure it, but I don't know the outcome. The 2200 is a fine player, but I don't think it will solve all your problems. The ICBM may.

There is no 'standard' crossover, but I suppose if you want 80hz, then most of the player with BM have it right, including the Pioneer 45a & 47ai. However, some use 1st order, 2nd order or even 3rd order (like the 2200) crossovers (some mix them), so the slopes will be different. 80hz is not right for me, for my mains or my surrounds. The 563 was meant for a different market and they admitted that they underestimated it. Small speakers used in Home Theater In a Box units work well with it, though, and so do full range speakers like I have. Personally, since I don't depend on my SW for low frequencies (except LFE, of course), I don't have a problem with the sacd output.
I believe the denon 5900 has variable crossover frequencies, but I don't know if the delays work in sacd. Now, that would probably be just the ticket for you. The DACs, even for CD playback, are great.

OK, now it's my turn. I've been looking for a good, reasonably price equalizer to replace mine. Do they make 3 channel or 1 channel models? Does it have more than one input?

 

[Brian L]

If I had a cable problem, I would expect tones not to line up right nor DVD-A to seem right so I discount that possibility.

Absolutely, I was just relaying my experience.

There is no shortage of bass on Floyd and Dylan. Tangled Up In Blue has a great, solid bass line.

I'll tell you, once I got the BM sorted out with my 45a (I did buy an ICBM because I needed a 80 hz cross to go with my AudioControl HT EQ), I started enjoying music more than I ever have.

Hi-rez surround, done well, was a revelation to me. You hear things that you never knew were there. I really, really have a hard time getting excited to buy 2CH stuff anymore.

And the older the material, the better it sounds. My most recent purchases have been Dylan, Aerosmith's Rocks, Tommy, and GBYBR.

Fabulous....all of them.

BGL

 

[Chris Cash]

I have the 667A which is piratically the same unit as the 563A. If you look we even share the same instruction manual. I recently bought Three Doors Down on SACD. I also have Megadeath on DVD-A. Also I have the Pink Floyd SACD sample disk. I have not had any bass issues what-so-ever. I'm running a STR-DA7ES receiver. Which also brings me to the bass management issue. It has always been my understanding that if you have a quality receiver bass management shouldn't be a problem.

~C.C.~

 

[Brian L]

It has always been my understanding that if you have a quality receiver bass management shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know your Sony, but very, very few receivers or pre/pros do BM on the 5.1 analog ins. As such, BM is a very big problem.

My NAD 762 is a "quality" receiver, and it does NOT do BM on the 5.1 inputs.

In those cases, you best have good BM in the player. If the player does not get it right, and the receiver does not offer it on the 5.1 analog ins, your are looking to need an ICBM or similar unit.

Well, actually, you could also have speakers that play down to 20 Hz AND A capable sub, but most don't have a rig that capable.

FWIW, the only uni players I know of that do get it right across the board are Denon's; 2200, 2900, and 5900 (IIRC). The cheapest of those is more than triple the selling price of a 563.

BGL

 

[Paul.S]

I shudder to think of how much more confusing these BM issues would have been if, by some twist of circumstances, the 563A had been as popular at the time of the Jurassic Park DTS DVD controversy.

-p

 

[Michael_I_C]

Paul.S:

What is wrong with Jurassic Park DTS DVD?