PB12-NSD and Epik Empire (1 Viewer)

[raehza]

I have the PB12-NSD that I purchased after reading up on it a lot and comparing it with other subs in it's price range. I like the sub a lot and it absolutely destroys my old BIC F12. Only problem is that I have just learned about the Epik Empire. I paid $769,- + Tax for my SVS and the Empire is listed at $799,- +Shipping and Tax. So a bit more but it's got 2x15 inch drivers. As a speaker newb, it sounds to me that the Empire should be a better sub than the PB12 but it seems that build quality and amps are a huge part of subs and SVS apparently is very big in that part. I have searched a few forums about PB12-NSD vs Empire vs .... comparisons and it seems that the PB12 is still a great sub, even though it's a smaller driver. I just want to make sure I got the most out of my money, since I have a week or so left to return my SVS for a refund. My room is about 2k cubic feet so very small, but I want to have a powerful enough sub in case I'd move my home theater into the basement , which is A LOT bigger than my current HT room. Thanks, Ray

 

[Robert_J]

The Epik would provide more output and deeper bass. http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-nsd Look at the response graph. It's flat to about 23hz (tuning frequency of the enclosure). http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/empire.html The Epik plays slightly lower anechoic since it is sealed, it will play lower. Ported subs drop 18db/octave below tuning frequency naturally. To keep the average user from destroying the sub, they all incorporate subsonic filters to block the extreme low bass. Sealed subs do not need this filter. The sealed enclosure keeps the air inside and it acts as a natural spring to control the driver. The resonant frequency of the sub will be higher, but the roll-off much shallower. Plus you never know if any EQ was added to the amp on either sub. What you are giving up is real estate. The Epik is much larger. If you by chance are moving to a larger room, I'd go with the Epik.

 

[raehza]

The plan is definitely to move to a larger room in the future.hmm.... Ray

 

[Robert_J]

Here's why I like sealed subs. As you can see, they start to roll off higher on the response graph but they pass the steeper roll-off of the ported and PR subs. With room gain, you can hear and feel that low bass that is not present on the ported subs. This is a generic graph because you can tune a DIY sub extremely low and get the extension of a sealed sub and the sensitivity of a ported sub. The only drawback is the size because it will be enormous. Hoffman's Iron Law can't be broken.

 

[John Garcia]

I don't think the Empire will entirely give you deeper bass. A vented sub that is tuned low enough, which the SVS is, will give you more "oomph" at the bottom; rumble that is. This conflicts a bit with what Robert is saying, but I've found this to be consistently true - sealed subs sound clean, and though the output is there down low in many cases, it isn't as "obvious" to the listener, even though the reason is that it is "cleaner". On the flip side of that, the Empire will definitely give you more output and it will likely have a cleaner sound. I've owned a number of subs including SVSs, and I currently own the Empire. My previous sub was a very low tuned vented 15" beast that was comparable to a SVS PC13 Ultra and I had no real complaints after switching to the Empire. It sounds solid with music, a key factor for me, and it does dig plenty deep for most people's needs. Room nothing, I have a very large room, and the Empire has no problem filling the entire house By comparison, the Empire has more output than the Plus above 25Hz (the Plus has more output below that), and the Plus has almost twice the output of the PB-12.

 

[raehza]

I think I'll just go ahead and get the Epik. The most i'll lose is shipping costs (which is pretty darn high to be honest.... ). But I think in the grand scheme of things you want to be happy with the equipment you bought and not constantly think "I should have could have..." The HSU VTF 15 was also one of my choises but its a bit out of my budget and it's a single 15inch. I need as much power as I can get within my budget whilst staying non-diy. Ray

 

[Robert_J]

That Hsu VTF 15 has a much beefier driver than the 2 Epiks. My TC-3000 driver can probably keep up with an Epik since my driver has 30mm of excursion.

 

[John Garcia]

The drivers in the Empire are not what I would call beefy, but they have good specs and with two of them, they do the trick. There are definitely single driver subs that will keep up with the Empire.

 

[raehza]

Haha you guys really don't want to make it easy for me. You have just put the HSU back into the game for me.... I'm going to have to play with numbers a bit and do a bit more research about whether I want the Epik or the HSU. The HSU is over budget but you guys say that the HSU has a better driver. I wish I could demo these units somewhere in NYC. @ John You know, your signature is what got me into looking at the Epik. I saw it and was curious about what it was and that's how I got into researching it. Could you tell me why you personally picked the Epik? I'm sure you had the HSU on your mind too but you decided not to get it. Why? Ray

 

[John Garcia]

The HSU wasn't available at the time; even the ULS15 wasn't, when I bought the Epik, and even the Empire hadn't been out that long either. Some or all of the guys at Epik were from the makers of the driver in my previous sub, Adire Audio and I had read good things about Epik and the price was right. My alternative, and now I am going to make things even worse....would have been likely a Rythmik Audio F15 or a DIY version of one of their dual 12" subs. I'm a big fan of their stuff. http://rythmikaudio.com/F15.html I wouldn't worry about the driver quality. I've had mine for about a year now with no issues, just a minor thing here and there. The shipping is high because this thing is built like a BANK VAULT, and weighs a lot. They delivered it on a pallet!

 

[raehza]

I got off the phone with Pete from HSU. Please take what I am telling you now with a grain of salt because I may have misunderstood him but this is what he said about Epik vs HSU. He says that the Epik box is too small for it's 2 drivers and therefore is losing lots of dB from 80Hz - 35Hz. He also says that a sealed sub is sub-optimal for a large space like mine, which contradicts what Robert_J said. Again, I may have misunderstood him. Also, the HSU is sold without tax which is great. Ray

 

[John Garcia]

Nope, that would be correct IMO, sealed is harder to fill a large space. I was concerned going from vented to sealed that I would be giving up output, and I DO have to turn the Empire's amp up higher than any of my previous subs to get it to good activation levels. I am was surprised to find that it has plenty of output. I am also very surprised that the Empire works as well as it does for the size that it is, as well as the fact that it is that small for dual 15". Whatever they've done (has to do also with the dual opposed setup) though, it works. All subs have tradeoffs, and I think they traded size for more output, because the proper size cabinet with their construction techniques would have weighed quite a bit more. What kind of space are we talking about? CF? I have previously owned an HSU sub as well. Also a big fan of their stuff.

 

[Robert_J]

Unless Pete knows the Thiele/Small parameters of the drivers in the Epik, he is just guessing. Sealed subs may or may not be sub-optimal depending on your goals. Pete is a member here and can back up his claims as he sees fit. That's great that the Hus sub is sold without tax. It's odd that subs from Illinois and Ohio (Epik and SVS) charge NY tax. I'll leave it at that because I don't know which federal and state agencies monitor these forums so no more tax talk for me. I can see your why you are stuck. Do you choose the V-6 turbo sports car or the V-8 sports car? Both will run circles around what you have now. If it were the other forum I frequent, the answer would be "get both".

 

[raehza]

Yup, all my stuff that I bought over at electronics expo was tax free for me. I paid Tax for my SVS though. I love your analogy about the V6- Turbo or the V8 N/A. Since I'd go with a V8 over a V6-Turbo, I think you have just sealed the deal for me with that analogy. I will order the HSU right now and hope I like it. I will measure my basement now and give you guys a rough guesstimate on how big it actually is. By the way, the Basement is an open space. There are smaller rooms for the Boilers, a bathroom and 2 closets for the Washing machine/Dryer and some inventory. Other than that it's got steps leading down to it (the steps lead into the center of the room, which sucks) and I've got a few pillars here and there. The floor is all tiled except a small portion where it's carpeted (this is where I will install my theater). Size will be posted in a few Ray

 

[raehza]

It's about 4000 cubic feet. But that's by no means an accurate measurement because some portions of the room are enclosed (as mentioned above). The little portion of the room I'll be using is about 15 x 10.5 x 7 but it is open, but MUCH MUCH smaller in cubic feet. It's a corner in the room so there are only 2 walls enclosing it. I will , for now, install 2 curtains to enclose the room, so it's darker for movies etc. But I'm told that curtains do next to nothing for sound quality, but would it aid with pressurizing the little corner in my room? Thanks, Ray Looking at the sizes I am dealing with, it almost seems that the HSU or the Epik won't have enough juice to pressurize my entire Basement, but if I enclose my theater corner one day, the HSU will be enormous and possibly too much , lol. I know I know, there is no such thing as "too much" in a room, but rather "too little"

 

[Robert_J]

would it aid with pressurizing the little corner in my room?

Not at all. If you are doing the work yourself on the basement, just install an IB sub with quad 18's. Use one of the little closets as the enclosure.

 

[raehza]

would it aid with pressurizing the little corner in my room?

Not at all. If you are doing the work yourself on the basement, just install an IB sub with quad 18's. Use one of the little closets as the enclosure.

lol. I'm not trying to blow up our house there. It's an oldie It may help to get the clothes off the wifey though.... Ray

 

[John Garcia]

The room I have the Empire in is about 4800cf and is open to a room almost that big as well, via a small hallway. There is no such thing as "too much". You can always turn it down In a few weeks I am moving from this large place to a small 1br apartment....guessing my neighbors aren't going to be happy about that.

 

[Epik Subwoofers]

Hey Guys, Just wanted to respond to an earlier post here... Our company does not charge any customer sales tax unless they reside in the state of IL. It is currently a 7% tax applied automatically to all IL orders. Hope you found a great sub, Ray. All the best, Epik Subwoofers www.epiksubwoofers.com [email protected] Phone 815-337-6067

 

[KaushikC]

Hi John I am also looking for a sub to upgrade my home theater.....and the choice was between the hsu vtf3mk4 or SVS pb12 NSD. initially I was leaning towards the hsu but now I am thinking about the SVS, since after talking with Pete of hsu it seemed that he was suggesting a. Near field placement to get the most out of the sub......wher as SVS was okay with a corner placement. Also I heard that SVS is better for movies where as hsu is more musical....and I am more of a movie guy..... I would appreciate you suggestion and advice. I do not know whether you remember me, but you helped me to set up my first home theater in San jose and also helped me to get the B&K receiver...