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Other Shoe Drops: Will Blu-Ray be HDMI Only Too? (2 Viewers)

Michael St. Clair

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What if a some of those chips ended up in TVs and some ended up in Dtrovision? Is Hollywood ready to revoke a bunch of legit televisions purchased by unknowing consumers, just to knock out the Dtrovision?

Is the key unique to each chip, or to a batch/lot? If it's the latter, you can not safely revoke unless you know for sure that every chip only ended up in a noncompliant device.

If it's the former, you still have a similar problem, you have to be 100% sure of where each revoked chip ended up.
 

Ronald Epstein

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Guys,

I just came into realization of this information
first-hand through this thread.

Could you just confirm something....

Is Blu-Ray saying HDMI only at this point?

We have been waiting for the official specs from
the Blu-Ray camp before going ahead with our plans
to institute an Internet-wide ADVISORY to consumers.

I don't want to go ahead with such a plan until
the information is FACT that Blu-Ray is HDMI only.
 

Aaron_Brez

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Michael,

The answer to all of these is "Yes they can." It is the licensee who is responsible for the integrity of their key. If they let it slip into the wrong hands, they can be held liable for the problems which occur when the keys are revoked.

Class action suits by customers who get a non-functional device will follow. Count on it. But don't expect the studios to be held liable. It will fall on the discrepant licensee, or possibly (if you get an impressive enough lawyer on the case) against the HDCP body.
 

PeterTHX

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That was my point exactly. Encryption (which AACS is) and HDMI only full resolution are two different things.

The only announcement has been that AACS is the replacment of CSS encryption of Blu-ray.

I really think the thread title should be changed.
 

JackKay

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If Sony allows older sets to view HD movies it would be quite the ONE (1080i over component) TWO (PS3) Punch that could put Toshiba in a downward spin.

Now if Microsoft put a Blu-ray optical drive in it's XBOX 360, that would be a knock out.

I keep on dreaming.
 

GlennH

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I really do think it is dreaming too. We keep talking about what a coup it could be for Sony to allow HD over analog and capture that early adopter market. But it's pretty clear to me that the studios are driving the bus here and they aren't going to allow it, period.

Fox's release supporting Blu-ray mentioned it's (supposedly) more robust copy protection vs. HD DVD (which HD DVD quickly attempted to rebut). Do you honestly think they would say that if full HD was allowed via component inputs?

Hope I'm dead wrong.
 

ChristopherDAC

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Since -- as I've mentioned in the pinned thread -- analog output restrictions realistically have little to do with copy protection, whereas this "ROM-Mark" deal would apparently put a wrench into high-speed duplication with PC drives [more of an issue] it is marginally possible that FOX et.al. would feel comfortable enough with the combination of AACS/BD+/ROM-Mark to dispense with HDCP and the accompanying component HD freezeout. I still wouldn't be completely comfortable with the product, but it would be a long sight better than the HD-DVD alternative.
 

Scott Merryfield

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Option B would not be the nightmare you are envisioning. Since there would be minimal demands for these titles early on, the retail stores can put them all together in a relatively small display area. Remember how SACD and DVD-Audio were shoved in a corner in the retail stores? Expect the same thing here.
 

Jason Harbaugh

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Seeing as 60% of all gamers are 25-44 years old, and 54% of console owners are 18+ (surveys back in 2000) the demand for the new consoles will come from those that could afford the nice tv, or already have one.

What I'm wondering is if both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are requiring HDMI and HDCP encryption will they at least give us full res 1080p for all releases?
 

Michael St. Clair

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Revoking legit sets would be a great way to kill a format. If I were the MPAA I'd be a lot more concerned about that than about the fact that I'm isolated from legal liability in a class action.

FUD will spread like wildfire if legit sets get revoked. You couldn't buy better negative PR.
 

Ronald Epstein

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I changed the topic header until we are certain
that Blu-Ray is going HDMI completely.
 

Nick Graham

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I agree it would be wise to hold off until it is offcially documented that Blu-Ray is 1080i over HDMI only...to jump the gun would hurt the credibility of any campaign we might end up having. Having said that, such an announcement is as inevitable as the sun coming up tomorrow morning.

I know there are a lot of people holding out hope, but....we're in for more disappointment. How can we contact the Blu-Ray group and get some kind of answer?
 

ChristopherDAC

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There's nothing new in that article, and some mis-statements. For example, nothing in AACS has yet made a permanent Internet connexion mandatory, though I and others fear this is the way it's going -- a kind of slippery slope into pay-per-view. At the moment, the key-revocation "self-destruct codes" reside on the discs, and don't get me going about how a flash memory update from every new disc purchassed is beautiful from a security and stability standpoint. Also, Blu-Ray group described BD+ in their press release as a development of CRI's SPDC.
 

Rolando

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Ron, anyway that you or someone can comunicate these concerns to the Blu-Ray group? I mean they might change their minds if they knew how we feel about this. I know, odds are slim but I believe the odds are better BEFORE they announce it officially. Once the decision is official it's always harder to change your mind once you've announced your goal. Ego being part of it but other logistics as well.
 

Aaron_Brez

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Depends. If the volume on those discrepant sets is low (I don't imagine it was a company like Sony or Toshiba who sold Dtrovision HDCP chips without making them sign a reseller's contract), it could fly right under the radar: "Owners of Akidachi television set had their HD-DVD players disabled today as part of a crackdown on illegal piracy*. Akidachi has commented that they are trying to resolve this matter with the appropriate..." blah blah blah. A (comparative) handful of customers does not a protest make. "Akidachi" would suffer blistering phone calls and lawsuits, but the studios will just deflect criticism with, "Hey, the movie still plays on TVs like Sony, Toshiba, and Panasonic. Blame Akidachi." And when the home user looks at his buddy's Sony TV and sees it's playing, he's going to think they're right.

* note: this is how it will be spun, not necessarily the reality of the situation, "illegal piracy" = "ability to watch on the component ports" to the studios
 

Tony Stark

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It looks like you have to plug the player into something (telephone/internet). It does not say anything about resolution and outputs.:



In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc.

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.


http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/do...0809-13034.pdf
 

Alan_H

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I agree completely. Is there any evidence whatsoever that the studios would allow Sony to do this even if Sony wanted to?
 

Aaron_Brez

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Not necessarily, though babbling about "dynamic updates of compromised code" are worrisome.

It's possible that "dynamic" means "months" rather than "hours", and that the revocation/code check will be through disk media rather than the through the internet, but since "BD+" is so poorly defined, it's hard to tell what the hell it actually does.
 

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