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"ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD" -- A Personal Review (1 Viewer)

Joseph DeMartino

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Anyone who has spent any time with cops and lawyers or served on a jury (and I dated a cop, worked for a law firm and was foreman of a jury) will tell you that eyewitness and earwitness "evidence" is among the least reliable elements of a case. And reliability of such evidence declines over time. Perceptions can be way off within seconds of an event - they can lose all connection with reality with a year or two. (People begin to "remember" things they never saw or heard, only read about or learned from others.)

Consider: Until the wreck was actually discovered virtually every depiction of the sinking of the Titanic showed the ship going down in one piece. That was the conclusion of the official inquiries. But nearly half the people in the water reported that the ship broke up on the surface and that the stern sank after the rest of the ship had gone down.

That's a fairly large sample size - a little more than 700 people - witnessing the most dramatic and traumatic event of most of their lives, yet they split virtually 50/50 on what would seem an important and obvious point. And the official record and every subsequent dramatist and historian agreed with the bare plurality who said "one piece" - until this conclusion was blown apart by the physical evidence.

It is also important to remember that initial reports (which so much of the conspiracy "literature" relies upon to find "inconsistencies") are almost always sketchy, incomplete and rife with errors. Witnesses will blurt out that the suspect was wearing a black jacket - then later remember seeing him run past a black van, at which point he realized the jacket was really navy blue. A cop tells a reporter the suspect had a Glock. When the gun lands in ballistics the tech sees it is really a cheap knock-off built to resemble a Glock. These people are not conspirators, they're human. And that means they're fallible.

Pretty much every criminal investigation, reconstruction of an historical event or attempt to establish the reason that anything failed (from a business plan to an airliner) is going to have a lot of (usually minor) disagreements between witnesses and participants as to the sequence of events, details of what was said or not said, and a host of other things.

When Lincoln was assassinated most people reported that John Wilkes Booth shouted, "Sic Semper Tyranus" ("Thus be it always to tyrants", the state motto of Virginia.) Others insist he said, "The South is avenged!" A few historians think he said both, but that audience members heard only one or the other because he turned while speaking. We'll probably never know for sure. And that's a fact from one of the most written about events in American history. Practically every person present that night wrote up an account of the night in a diary or a letter within hours of Booth's pulling the trigger, and most of them have found their way into university archives and thus the hands of historians. (The 19th century was a much more literate and literary time than 1963 Dallas, and the audience at Ford's theater would have been more so than the average.)

Here's a famous experiment in perception (Gil Grissom mentions this one in a CSI episode, but the experiment cited was real):

A group of college students is shown short video clip of a group of people in white and black t-shirts passing a couple of basketballs among them . The students are asked to count how many times the balls are passed. Part way through the clip a guy in a gorilla suit walks out into the midst of the people, stops, and looks at the camera before moving on. When the clip is over the students are asked what they thought of the gorilla. About half of them say, "What gorilla?" :D

Several insist there was no gorilla even after being told by the students who had noticed the gorilla that there had never been one and that the students with the more accurate perceptions were wrong. (In this context we can call refer to these students as "The Connellys". ;))

Details (including the actual video) can be found at these links:

A Matter of Perception
A Gorilla in the Midst
Watch the Basketball Video

As for people running up that goddamned "grassy knoll" - I mentioned many pages ago that Dealy Plaza was (and is) an echo chamber. It is very difficult to tell the exact direction that any loud noise is coming from. Odds are the people ran up that slope because they thought, mistakenly that they'd heard a shot come from there. (Or maybe they thought they'd heard a shot from the opposite direction and were prudently running towards the wall to take cover behind it.
htf_images_smilies_smile.gif
Either way the wall would have made an excellent surface to bouce the sound of the shots off, confusing that portion of the crowd.)

Regards,

Joe
 

buttmunker

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Mike
The best example of believing the Warren Report as gospel is the reaction of Robert Kennedy after he read it.

He wasn't all 'up-in-arms' to nail Castro, or Hoffa and the mob, or Hoover, or the ghost of Marilyn for the murder of his brother, no. He resigned himself to "moving on," and do you really think a man like RFK would just move on if he really thought a conspiracy to kill the President was real? A man who worshipped the ground his brother walked on? I don't think so.

Oswald was already dead, so there was nothing more to do on the subject, as far as RFK was concerned. He moved on with his life.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I rest my case. If RFK believed Oswald was the lone assassin, that's good enough for me.
 

buttmunker

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Mike


who would want to kill this nice looking young man? Oswald was born the year this photo was taken (1939).
 

phil*

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Andro

Where does Robert Kennedy ever state categorically "I believe Lee Harvey Oswald,acting alone,killed my brother"? Can you provide references?
 

phil*

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Andro

If you were ALONE,by yourself,your natural inclination would be to run AWAY from where you believe the shots came from. However, the "mob mentality" would take over in this case,if you see dozens of people running towards the knoll, in all likelihood,you would follow them yourself.
 

buttmunker

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I read it in Evan Thomas's book "Robert Kennedy: A Life"
also in "Seeds of Destruction."

(I'd be hard pressed to find that online...but I did read that.)
 

phil*

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Andro

So, in your view,a 1940's era constructed Manllicher-Carcano rifle,the alleged assasination weapon, is a "modern rifle"?
 

phil*

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Andro

But doesn't this way of thinking apply to potentially everybody..including yourself?
 

phil*

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Andro
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if anybody can explain the latent fingerprint belonging to Malcolm Wallace discovered on a cardboard box on the 6th floor "sniper's nest". Fingerprints on cardboard boxes do not last long,so Malcolm Wallace was at this location on or about November 22,1963.
 

David Von Pein

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Unless you're prepared to call J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI a "liar" (and I won't be a bit surprised to hear you call Hoover a "liar", because most conspiracy-thirsty folks like to do just that), then you have to tackle Page 18 of Warren Commission Exhibit #3131, which is a document from Hoover to the WC's J. Lee Rankin dated September 18, 1964 (just six days before the Commission handed over the completed Warren Report to President Johnson).

CE3131 (page 18) states that the only "unidentified" print (as of 9/18/64) found on the boxes in the Book Depository was a PALMprint, not a FINGERprint:
"There is one latent palm print remaining unidentified, and investigation is continuing in an effort to identify same." -- CE3131



Warren Commission Exhibit #3131 (Larger Image)

In 1998, a fingerprint expert named Nathan Darby identified a FINGERprint that was supposedly the fingerprint of Malcolm Wallace. But according the the FBI reports (and CE3131 above), no FINGERprints remained unidentified on the TSBD boxes at all. Only a single palmprint remained unidentified as of September '64.

In late 2001, "Reclaiming History" author Vincent Bugliosi talked to Darby. Here's what I said about that in my "RH" book review:
"Vince [Bugliosi] also does a nice job of forever destroying the theory that has Mac Wallace's fingerprint being on one of the book cartons in the Sniper's Nest. And VB does this by actually talking to the person (Nathan Darby) who supposedly positively identified the print in question as being Wallace's. But there's a big problem for those who want to buy into this Wallace theory -- the print on the box was a PALMprint, not a FINGERprint. Bugliosi talked to Darby over the phone in November 2001, and Vince quotes Darby as saying: "I wasn't given any palm print. They were both fingerprints." ....

[Quoting Bugliosi directly:]

"So much for Malcolm Wallace at the window and another desperate attempt by the conspiracy community to implicate ANYONE other than Lee Harvey Oswald for Kennedy's murder." -- VB; Page 923 [of "Reclaiming History"
]"
MORE ABOUT MALCOLM WALLACE AND THE IMPORTANCE OF CE3131
 

Jeff Gatie

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Boy do I love it when people who know absolutely squat about firearms try to talk like authorities. Listen carefully Skippy. A revolutionary advancement in the history of arms, smokeless powder was invented in 1884, thus creating what is known as the "modern firearm", as opposed to the old blackpowder firearms that put out clouds of acrid smoke.
 

Jack P

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No. Considering that I actually read the WC testimony in full years ago and compared it to what conspiracy authors wrote and found how the conspiracy authors inevitably told quite a few tall tales in an effort to raise questions without providing any rational answers about how events really happened. I happen to support a concrete scenario of how events unfolded based on the physical evidence. Conspiracy authors as a general rule try to keep raising only "reasonable doubt" or "we'll never know" smokescreens and then shirk their responsibility to put up or shut up regarding a plausible scenario of how events *really* happened if it wasn't Oswald alone, because in the game of being an honest historical researcher it's incumbent upon them to provide those answers and not cop out.

BTW, if the conspiracy buffs are so brilliant as to tell us how things really happened, how is it that their supposed expertise that makes them supposedly so brilliant about the JFK assassination *never* gets applied to any other context of them being used as "expert witnesses"? The most notable attempt to use a JFK conspiracy author as an expert witness somewhere else was when OJ Simpson's defense team used Oliver Stone's technical advisor, Robert Groden as a photo expert to insist the pix of Simpson wearing Bruno Magli shoes were fakes. And Groden was utterly destroyed on the stand as a person of zero competence whatsoever.
 

phil*

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Andro
David Von Pein said:
[/b]
Unless you're prepared to call J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI a "liar" (and I won't be a bit surprised to hear you call Hoover a "liar", because most conspiracy-thirsty folks like to do just that)

Far be it for me to call J. Edgar Hoover a liar;EVERYBODY knows the man was a saint.
 

phil*

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Do you know what my qualifications are? How do we know that YOU are an expert in firearms?

First of all, I never claimed to be an expert in firearms,or in anything else for that matter. Your reference to me as "Skippy" unfortunately is typical of the condescending manner that the "lone nut did it" camp has for anybody with a different view from theirs; while there are individuals on both sides of this argument who take their beliefs to the extreme,it is far more common for the "lone nut" theorists to resort to personal attacks on those individuals who believe that this tragic event was the result of a conspiracy. You will be hard pressed to find many individuals who believe in the "conspiracy" version who label the "lone nutters" as being nuts themselves because of their beliefs...we don't believe that you believe in flying saucers,aliens, Loch Ness monsters,or Santa Claus just because your viewpoint differs from ours. On the contrary,most of us encourage debate as long as this discourse is civil and relevant to the topic at hand. Sadly, there are those individuals,such as yourself,who, when confronted with a view that is diametrically opposed to their own,feel cornered,and lash out with belittling comments. In my view, it is this attitude,which is FAR MORE PREVALENT among the "lone nutters" than it is for the "conspiracy theorists" that goes a long way towards explaining where the REAL truth lies in this case.
 

Jeff Gatie

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phil* said:

Let's see, so far in this thread, the conspiracy fans have been wrong about:

Rose Cherami
Fingerprints on the rifle
Palm prints on a box
Smoke from a rifle
Bullet fragments in Connally
Evidence wiped from the car
Ability to recreate the SBT shot
Oswald's paraffin test
Shots coming from behind or from 2 directions
Oswald's "patsy" statement

In 4 pages, 10 theories shot down like ducks on the wing, not one holding up to scrutiny. If this was a Little League game, the 10 run rule would have ended it. So how many of these silly scenarios have to be refuted before you guys begin to believe the truth? The record certainly isn't looking too good for your side.
 

Jeff Gatie

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Actually, I attacked your knowledge of firearms. The "Skippy" thing was addressing the arrogance of the question (you'd think you wouldn't ask a question you didn't know the answer to, eh?) As far as personal attacks are concerned, I believe the personal attacks started with your post above. When confronted with a fact, you attacked me instead of addressing the fact that you are 100% wrong . . . again. Besides, some of you conspiracy people are really, really crazy!!
 

David Von Pein

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I'd like to interject a request:

I hope this thread can either fade away into obscurity (like most threads eventually do), or maintain a civil tone among its participants, because I don't want to risk this thread getting locked due to a hostile, hate-filled environment. (And that's because I want the ability to edit my thread-starting post forever; and the "Edit" buttons disappear if a thread gets closed.)

I've bitten my tongue and refrained from using certain words in this thread, specifically in an effort to keep this thread from getting locked. And believe me, it's not an easy task on my part. But I think I've done it in my HTF JFK threads. I'm hoping others here will do likewise with their tongues. (It hurts a little, but the pain soon subsides.)
htf_images_smilies_smile.gif


Thank you.
 

Jeff Gatie

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You are correct and I will agree to hold my tongue. But you have to admit it gets pretty boring when it's nothing but "Post crazy theory A, A gets shot down, forget about A and post crazy theory B, B gets shot down, forget about B and post crazy theory C, etc."
 

Jack P

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I'd like to point something out. This issue does not resolve around something subjective in which you can have differing opinions it revolves around something that in the end has one right answer only, because the events of November 22, 1963 happened one way only and ultimately someone is right and everyone else who says it wasn't that way is wrong. The problem is that conspiracy buffdom is too filled with people who have more of a vested interest in tying the assassination to an ideological type of agenda ("the government is evil" etc.) than in letting the honest factual evidence dictate our determination of how events unfolded. The notion that "we don't know enough to ever know the truth" is a giant cop-out and an assertion that doesn't square with any proper historical methodological analysis of this subject, given the overwhelming amount of information that *is* available to us. The people who question the lone assassin argument have to put up or shut up regarding their take on just *how* this happened and stop hiding behind the "reasonable doubt" game. Honest historical scholarship and the sensible use of basic historical methodological principles is what's requried and if conspiracy buffs (as so many do) don't follow those principles, they don't end up with my respect.
 

Neil Brock

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Too bad that 70% of the American public today disagrees with the Oswald LNT. Maybe that's why there's such hostility, because it's still a minority belief. And what about the HSCA findings? They're wrong but the Warren Commission is right. Let me ask you this, LNT people. If the WC found there was a conspiracy, which would have been shocking if they had, do you honestly believe they would have let the public know about it?
 

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