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***Official THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST Discussion Thread (including THE PASSION RECUT) (1 Viewer)

Michael Martin

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These are probably the two things he didn't take liberties with. Roman scourgings were so brutal that it wasn't unknown for prisoners to die from them before ever being crucified. And the gospel accounts have Mary at the cross. (Whether you take that as fact or not is beside the point; the poster said Gibson took liberties with the story and Mary at the cross is firmly in the biblical tradition.)
 

Michael Martin

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You're right. While most other Christians I know loved the movie, I am ambivalent about it. While it impacted me personally, I felt like there were a number of storytelling choices Gibson made that didn't work and/or were egregiously unhistorical.

One of my coworkers is a huge pop culture and movie buff - he's seen far more TV and many more movies than I ever will. When we discussed The Passion, he confirmed my concern: that the event (Christ's trial and execution) is presented entirely without context. Many Americans know little about Christianity beyond the name of the central figure and a few sketchy details. I agree that Passion works primarily for people who know the gospel story well, but fails to really communicate to non-Christians the all-important why Christ is being beaten and killed.

I also agree that having brilliant (or at least artistically superior) elements and production does NOT make a film brilliant.
 

Brandon Conway

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The "why" is intended to be supplied by the audience member. That's the way the film is intentionally designed. You have to evaluate the film on what it intends to do, not on what is expected by conventional filmmaking.
 

Ernest Rister

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But a well-made movie is not the same as a good movie

Since "good" is completely subjective, that's a moot point -- the film is impeccably crafted, has a point of view I find profoundly moving, and I count myself lucky I had the opportunity to see it. That, for me, is a good movie.

"How brilliant can a movie be if it depends on one's belief?"

Not belief -- understanding and knowledge of the subject. That's not the same thing as Faith. I love Scorsese's Last Temptation as well, for different reasons.

And let's not forget, for many people Mel's approach did not work.

So what? A lot of people don't get A.I., Empire of the Sun, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Donnie Darko, heck even Unforgiven seems to elude a few chaps. I thought Gibson's "you are there, you are witness" approach was electrifying.

And following your thinking, not every Christian is bound to like 'The Passion' either, because it is doubtful that the entire Christian community has a collective opinion.

Yes, but I don't make declarative statements like your "That will silence the Jews!" bombshell which you lobbed previously, and are now trying to obfuscate by agreeing with common sense.

About the necessity that one has to be Christian in order to like Gibson's film, does the same apply to 'Black Hawk Down'? Does one have to be a soldier to like Ridley Scott's war movie?

One has to have knowledge and understanding of the Gospels in order to fully appreciate The Passion. One does not necessarily need to be a Christian.

As for "liking" a film, people have thousands of reasons as for why they "like" or "dislike" something. Apreciation and comprehension are not the same thing as "liking". I "like" Plan Nine From Outer Space, Damien Omen II and Van Helsing, that doesn't mean I think they are great or brilliant works of cinema. They're hysterically awful movies that are loads of fun to watch. At least for me, they are.

And you have too admit that Mel took some liberties with the events (the extreme amount of Roman whip lashes and Maria's presence at the cross (?) come to mind).

There is a bit of artistic license with the handling of the demons and the portrayal of Satan, and there was a keen dispute in this very thread over the sequence where Christ falls from a bridge, but I don't think there is much dispute at all that this is the most historically-accurate portrayal of the Crucifixion ever filmed, by anybody.

And of course Mary was present. Where did you get the idea that she wasn't? It was Mary and the family that cared for Christ's body after he died.
 

Chris

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Eh, I hated ET. Still do. I thought Napoleon Dynamite was idiotic. And I still believe that Bis Ans Ende Der Welt is one of the finest films ever made. Every film ever made has tons of people who hate it.. heck, I know a lot of people who have seen Sin City recently who hate it, vitrously so.. but it doesn't prevent others from enjoying it.
 

AlexCremers

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For good order, biblical doesn't mean 'truth' or 'facts', right? It's a bible's truth. So, if professors in religion claim that Mary was 32 km (20 miles) from the place of crucifiction, wouldn't you agree that Mel took some liberties? After all, it's his artistic vision that we've seen ... and that of Anne Catherine Emmerich, of course. "Taking liberties" suddenly sounds like an understatement. Mind you, I have nothing against a personal artistic vision but sometimes I have the feeling that people really believe that 'The Passion' took them back in time and showed them the truth.
 

AlexCremers

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Mmm, this is very extreme thinking and not part of my life. KKK? Neo-Nazis? Do Christians share the same level of extremity when they go watch a movie? I'm not going to talk movies with someone who's as close-minded as Neo-Nazis!
I see it the other way around. I think it's the job of movies to "make" us believe. I do not believe in E.T. but for two hours Spielberg's magic "made" me believe. That's what movies are all about! I thought Yoda looked like a dead muppet when I first saw him in TESB. I was disappointed but the movie and the people who brought him to life, all made me believe in him. Here's another example, I thought I never was going to root for the German soldiers in 'Das Boot', but I did! That's the true power of cinema. If someone says to me that 'Das Boot' is a lousy film because it portrays Germans as humans then he has a problem. If someone says that E.T. is a bad movie because aliens don't exist then this person shouldn't be watching movies in the first place. Movies are "make-believe"! That's how I watch them. Make me believe in it! I have no prejudice, I have no favorite genre. You can tell me any story you like, the theme doesn't matter. Heck, at the time I even believed in 'Jesus Christ Superstar'! But when a film is asking me to already believe at forehand, then I'm not buying.

Alex
 

AlexCremers

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Ernest, you "want" to believe! Don't you see it? You are already in love with the character. I guess I was waiting for the film to make me love him.
 

AlexCremers

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So, should we compare it with a bunch of internal techies watching a corporate video presentation about some new equipment and they would go "cool" and we would go "boring"? I mean, they have "the knowledge" and get all excited, while we are just looking at a machine? Is 'The Passion of the Christ' for experts only? Forgive me, but I'm not buying.

If what you're saying is true, then 'The Passion' belongs in church and not in cinema.



Alex
 

Larry Sutliff

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Jesus speaks to His Mother from the cross in the Gospel of John, so I really don't see that any "liberties" were taken here. I've never read anything by a biblical scholar saying how close or far to the cross the Blessed Mother was. Any "scholar" that claims she was 20 miles from the cross is injecting more speculation and his own bias into the mix than Gibson did!
 

BrettB

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"But when a film is asking me to already believe at forehand, then I'm not buying."

Believe what? What exactly do you feel that you have to believe to appreciate this film?
 

Ernest Rister

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I'm not going to talk movies with someone who's as close-minded as Neo-Nazis!...Ernest, you "want" to believe!

I'll tell you something else I believe -- that you have no serious intention of wanting to understand this film, you are only interested in arguing and baiting.

You throw bombs, then play innocent. You ask loaded questions, then ignore the answers. You make indirect insults, then side with the offended.

Your presence in this thread is not to learn, is not to understand, or even appreciate. You're just here to amuse yourself. I think you're trolling, and I'm no longer going to bite. I suggest others do the same.
 

Michael Reuben

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From the guidelines at the beginning of this thread:

On that basis, the recent discussion of reactions to the film by certain critics vis-a-vis those same critics' assessments of other films has been removed and should not be resumed.

M.
 

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