***Official THE MATRIX Discussion Thread*** (2 Viewers)

[Charles J P]

One interesting subplot in the movie is self-fulfilling prophecy. The Oracle told Trinity she would fall in love with "the one" and Morpheus (a man Trinity admired and respected) told her that he really thought Neo was "the one". She didnt seem to really have time to fall in love with him, so did the knowledge of her fate force her into that fate?

 

[AJ Johnson]

Quote:

No, that's someone who knows throw-away characters when he sees them. Other than Cypher and Tank those other characters were there to speak a few lines and die lol. That's it, they served their purpose. There wasn't enough time to care for them.
And just for the record...I do like this movie, but not blindly. I don't like any movie so much that I can't criticize it. The first time I watched it I liked it a lot. After repeat viewings it got to be a bit boring and overrated to me. I have to be in the right mood to watch it.

 

[Josh Lowe]

The movie is stuffd full of theological and biblical references. Try looking up the title on the cover of the book that Neo hid those discs in at the beginning of the movie. Or the name Morpheus. Or Nebuchandezzar (sp). Or Trinity. Or that there were Three agents. Or Morpheus' moment of doubt that Neo was the one "It can't be.." Or Neo's resurrection. Etc etc etc there are many, many more.

I had also read that the original concept was for the entire thing to have been a fantasy in Thomas Anderson's head.. That he was a schizophrenic getting further and further lost into his fantasy word, and that when he is reborn as a god, it symbolizes his psychotic break. Additionally, the last scene would have been him in a straight jacket in a rubber room..

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

My two cents: from where I sat, it looked like Neo was pretty much invincible at the end of the first film. Being the one, he could manipulate the matrix as he saw fit. The reason why the two agents ran was because they knew that they couldn't hurt him.
My friends read it the same way because we've had many discussions on the next two films along the lines of: "how are they going to challenge Neo in the next two films?"
I'm sure some sort of weakness will be found or they will manage to alter the nature of the matrix to contain Neo or they'll come up with something else. However, purely looking at The Matrix and nothing else, I thought it was clear that Neo was now unstoppable within the confines of the matrix.

 

[Charles J P]

Todd, your assessment while literally true, doesnt take into account any type of change. Neo didnt have total control of the Matrix at the begining of I, so what makes you think that the Matrix wont change during II?

 

[Tom Ryan]

The title of the second film is The Matrix Reloaded. You can reload a firearm. You can also reload a computer program.

 

[ShaunD]

I for one would not like to see this thread closed down. Please can the religion vs. science talk.

This movie is about religion, the Wachowski brothers said this in an interview, and I believe that it was already stated in this thread about Neo being the second coming of Christ and Morpheus being god. Also his ship's name comes from the Bible. But I digress, my response was not meant to be science vs. religion, I was just replying to someone else that had posted science was provable while religion was not.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Charles,

The only reason Neo did not have control of the matrix at the beginning of I is that he had not yet realized who he was, i.e. The One.

The whole quest for discovery that Neo undergoes is to awaken this latent power. After his rebirth, Neo is no longer bound by the matrix. The agents cannot defeat him, he cannot be traced, and he can exhibit truly alien abilities (flight) that even the agents (who are bound to the matrix) cannot. Neo is beyond.

I agree with Tom: obviously the title of the sequel leads me to believe that the AI is going to alter the matrix to make it less Neo-friendly.

 

[Andrew 'Ange Hamm' Hamm]

ShaunD:

Great point. It's nice to see someone else here has broken out of the real "Matrix:" materialist science's monopoly on Western thinking. But speaking as an HTF veteran, you're pretty close to getting this thread closed, not as much for what you said (which I pretty much agree with) as for the inevitable vitriol-spewing replies from hacked-off postmodernists. If you haven't already, you should check out Signs of Intelligence: Understanding Intelligent Design edited by William Dembski and James Kushiner. It's a great primer to the growing Intelligent Design movement in science. I'm moving on to Michael Behe's Darwin's Black Box soon.

Back on track...

I just watched The Matrix this week, and I had some new revelations about the film, so bear with my long-windedness.

I think I have the "resurrection" ending all figured out. Remember that when Neo goes to the Oracle, she tells him "You got the gift, but you're waiting for something." She doesn't tell him he's not the One, though he seems to interpret it that way. Bit by bit, though, everything the Oracle said comes true, from the vase to the choice Neo has to make about Morpheus. Then he actually beats an Agent, something no one has ever done. The seeds have been planted; maybe he really is the One. Of course, he's killed in the Matrix, and his body makes the death real; his heart and respiration stop. But his consciousness is still there in the body to enough of an extent to hear Trinity, and the Oracle's confirmation is the last evidence he needs--confirmation that he had been "waiting for." Armed with that confidence, he can now control the Matrix--including his bullet-riddled residual self-image, which also "heals" his real body. It's not "love conquers all" because there are other, plot-specific, issues at stake as well.

I also find endless humor in the dozens of Christian/religious references in the film (which many Christians might find mildly to profoundly offensive).

The answer is "profoundly." In fact, this is about the only thing in the movie I would change. (Other than the "batteries" crap. If you need biological batteries, grow cows.) There's plenty of messianic imagery in the film without taking the Lord's name in vain and alienating a big chunk of your audience.

Dome,

Why in the world does "true" sci-fi have no time for action? Have you never read Heinlein? Niven? Pohl? Clarke? Sci-fi isn't some lofty genre that defines itself by excluding storytelling tools. Sometimes characters have to get their hands dirty to accomplish the story's ends. The Matrix is the best example on the screen in 20 years.

Every time I watch it, I am re-convinced that The Matrix is the most important and original sci-fi film since Blade Runner. In 20 years, the people who dismissed it when it was released are going to feel as silly as Star Wars haters from 1977.

 

[Charles J P]

The only reason Neo did not have control of the matrix at the beginning of I is that he had not yet realized who he was, i.e. The One.

The whole quest for discovery that Neo undergoes is to awaken this latent power. After his rebirth, Neo is no longer bound by the matrix. The agents cannot defeat him, he cannot be traced, and he can exhibit truly alien abilities (flight) that even the agents (who are bound to the matrix) cannot. Neo is beyond.

To think that because a character is depicted as invincible at the end of a story, does not mean that no continuation of the story is necessary or possible, or that such continutaion will be contrived, is short-sighted. Neo has many things to learn about his power still, and while he has more power within him than any of his cohorts, most if not all of the other freedom fighters have more control and understanding of their power at this point. Neo used all of his power out of desparation and emotion and really doenst have much control over what he does. I can think of a dozen other stories where the master has far less power than the pupil, but more control. Pick up the "Sword of Truth" series starting with "Wizards First Rule" for an excellent sci-fi fantasy series and a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. At the end of each book, the main character appears invincible, but yet the next book leads to more strugle with his power.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Charles,

I disagree. Before Neo's rebirth, his powers are tied to desparation and emotion (the rooftop fight, the fight at the subway) however witness the difference after the rebirth - the way he parries every blow by Agent Smith without any emotion or visible expense of energy. Compare those two fights with Agent Smith - the desperate fight in the sbuway station and the his victory in the hallway - Neo is vastly different during the latter

I agree that Neo lacks control through most of the movie but not after he dies and is reborn. If he does show a lack of mastery at this point, please show me where.

 

[Charles J P]

Good point, I may have been able to disagree if they hadnt shown him flying at the end of the movie, however, to me the flying shows a total control over the rules of the Matrix. That however, does not mean that the second movie has nowhere to go. I'm sure the whole point of the title, is that the rules will change. Whether that means the movie will be more of the same or not will depend on how well the writers, directors, etc. do their jobs.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Charles,

I saw the flying at the end of the film as Neo being beyond the rules of the matrix. I think the agents represent absolute control over the rules, which is why The One, being able to go beyond the rules, can defeat them.

I agree that they'll find a way to challenge Neo, probably via some type of altered matrix (hence the name "Matrix: Reloaded"). This is not the first time there has been a "One" because there was another before Neo who freed Morpheus, etc. I've always wondered what happened to that first - if the AI defeated him (inside the matrix or outside), etc.

 

[Charles J P]

It would be funny if the last "One" just died of old age

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

No kidding. You'd think that, out of respect to him, that he would remain the One and Neo would be the Two... now I'm having The Prisoner flashbacks...
Could the new matrix be The Village?

 

[Jay_Leonard]

One of the 5-10 most influential movies of the 20th century.

Switch "You have one Choice... our way, or the highway"

Bad Line

The next movies will not be as influential as the Matrix. After all you can only redefine moviemaking so often. But they may be as much fun.

 

[DAN NEIR]

Can someone explain "there is no spoon" and why Neo says it right before he goes up the elevator.

Also what does everyone think about the vase, do you think Neo would have still broken it?

 

[Tim Hoover]

The spoon does not really exist - everything within the Matrix is an illusion.

Neo reiterated that point in the elevator to help alleviate his fears, by reminding himself that nothing he sees is real.

As to the vase, well, that's a difficult one to answer...

 

[Steeve Bergeron]

You should ask Amelie, she knows!
Seriously, Tim's right.

 

[Bruce Hedtke]

I concur with Tim. He nailed it. One of the things that actually makes that line have some level of depth is that back when virtual reality was so hotly discussed, the thinking was that they could build a machine that could trick you into believing that what was happening in your mind was happening to your body. You would lose touch with reality. People feared that such a thing would be worse than any drug and the people who used it would become hopelessly addicted. The Matrix is that fantasy machine and Neo was fighting with the fact that though everything felt and seemed real, it was all an illusion. Just like the spoon. In the matrix, Neo couldn't use his body to fight, he had to use his mind.
Bruce