Official Playstation 3 Blu-Ray player Thread (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Jason,

if your TV does 3-2 pulldown for deinterlacing "film" 1080i, then it would look pretty much like straight 1080p.

The problem is with 1080p TVs that just "bob" 1080i to 1080p. Bobbing means they just "fill in the lines" without actually inter-weaving the odd/even fields that originally were together as the complete frame in the progressive original. 3-2 pulldown is the quick way to describe a deinterlacer that analyzes the video stream to identify the fields that go back together so it can "zip" them back like the originally were (without any loss from real progressive).

 

[Cees Alons]

if your TV does 3-2 pulldown for deinterlacing "film" 1080i

I doubt a TV ever will. How would it "know" that a certain stream of images came from a DVD doing 3:2 pull down?
No, unless I'm seriously mistaken, a TV set will most probably just fill in the even lines between the odd lines meticulously. Remember that a "classic" TV did the same without any problem ever.
However... there's another problem most people aren't aware of. For some time, almost until half-way last year, TV-sets were marketed as 1080p while their input circuitry was only designed for 1080i. They were labeled 1080p, because that looked better and because the (LCD and Plasma) displays were, well, indeed read out consecutively. More honest specs said "1080p display".
On newer sets 1080p input logic was added, but sometimes only by converting to 720p first. Indeed 1080p isn't as good as 1080i on those sets.
I'm under the impression that only the very newest Full HD (as it is called in Europe when the display is at least 1920x1080, as opposed to "HD Ready") TV sets have "true" 1080p input circuitry. My newest Samsung certainly has.
As we all know ( ), 1080i (if done well) is exactly as good as 1080p (if done well!).
Cees

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I doubt a TV ever will. How would it "know" that a certain stream of images came from a DVD doing 3:2 pull down?

No, unless I'm seriously mistaken, a TV set will most probably just fill in the even lines between the odd lines meticulously. Remember that a "classic" TV did the same without any problem ever.

Cees,

with all due respect, I think you lack some understanding of how American deinterlacers work with 60Hz video processed from 24 fps film.

A deinterlacing engine would work with 1080i from film exactly like it does with 480i from film. The chip stores several fields in a buffer and analyzes them to see if it can detect the "A-A-B-B-B-A-A-B-B" pattern that 60Hz video has when it's been processed with 3-2 pulldown from 24 fps film. Then It uses this pattern to identify the cadence of fields to determine which fields belong in true pairs to represent a frame of information. It then folds those fields back together giving you a complete and valid "frame reconstruction" from the two fields scanned from the single frame of film.

This is called 3-2 pulldown reversal, and it's what Faroudja pionneered back in the late 1980's with their then $20,000 "Line-doublers". Nowdays, most all TV sets and progressive-scan DVD players (and projectors) employ 3-2 pulldown reversal as a matter of course on 480i film that's been scanned from film and processed into 60Hz.

Note: the same chips also look for 2-2 cadence to perform frame reconstruction from PAL sources as well.

What's new and different these days is that no one in the video industry bothered to consider that they should apply the same frame reconstruction to 1080i film-based sources. This was because only until recently the cost of processing for HD signals was a bit prohibitive. This isn't the case anymore, and we're just now starting to see consumer gear that can do 3-2 pulldown reversal on 1080i sources just like we've enjoyed with 480i sources for some time.

It's important to note that any other form of deinterlacing other than an algorithm that identifies true frame pairs and then folds them back together is just interpolation and won't provide the original quality of the original progressive frame. Remember, it's not just a matter of pairing up odd/even fields with 60Hz material from film since the 3-2 field cadence spreads out the information in a way that doesn't sync with a simple odd/even pattern. That's what was so revolutionary about Faroudja's patend back in the late '80s, and it's why it's so important that companies start to apply the same high-fidelity standard to deinterlacing 1080i film-sources as well.

The reason that folks haven't thought much about it thus far is because 1080i that's just "bobbed" (ie, interpolated) to 1080p still looks pretty good on most displays when you have nothing to compare it to. But the minute you step up to full-quality deinterlacing, the improvement in clarity is VERY obvious.

 

[Cees Alons]

Dave,
No doubt I might be in error when American equipment would work quite differently from what's usual over here. And I certainly agree with you as far as de-interlacers are concerned.
Also, a processor like the DVDO VP50 I just bought will do that too.
But are these de-interlacing chips really built into all new TV sets? And do 1080i and -p machines really perform 3:2 pull down still? And would a TV set sense that an image is produced by a DVD player?
Note that I'm not arguing this, because I really haven't researched American versions of the TV sets that are sold in European versions here as well, although I doubt it, And yes, I'd like to know.
(BTW, my remark about many, slightly older TV sets not *really* accepting 1080p yet is certainly correct (well, "as far as I know" )).
Cees

 

[DaViD Boulet]

(BTW, my remark about many, slightly older TV sets not *really* accepting 1080p yet is certainly correct (well, "as far as I know" )).

You're absolutely right on that count. Yet another "sigh, what were they thinking?!?" moment with cutting-edge gear that omitted a feature that seemed so obvious it's almost unbelievable that it wasn't provided. Sort of like the first generation of high-end digital projectors that lacked DVI/HDMI inputs! You should have heard the way the reps would try to spin that one: "VGA inputs are much higher quality than digital..."
:rolleyes
p.s. here's some great links to help explain this whole bizarre thing about 3-2 pulldown with 60Hz video and 24 fps film:
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

 

[Cees Alons]

However, there are a handful of new 1080p sets and projectors that are incorporating real 3-2 pulldown reversal ....
....
....
Chances are that even your European gear has chips for 3-2 pulldown for 480 sources...

Part of the problem of finding out about all that is the surprising scarcety of information about the specifications of this type of equipment. This has been going on for years.
Manufacturers are sitting on top of the info, without much disclosure, and I'm afraid it's not for commercial reasons alone.
Still, I'm planning to find out more about it.
Cees

 

[Gary Seven]

I have a similar setup on my system and haven't experienced any freezing just yet. Does it only affect certain titles?

I watched Monster House last night and it froze up on me about four times for about 5 to 10 seconds each. I watched Casino Royale a couple of nights before without a problem.
The first time I experienced the freeze up. I have the latest update installed.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Cees,

what makes it even *more* confusing is that gear that does 3-2 pulldown reversal-deinterlacing for 480i sources will have "3-2" logos and insignias on the box and device... and no where will it mention that it's only for 480i deinterlacing and *not* for 1080i deinterlacing. I've had that happen already... where friends say "I just bought this new 1080p TV and it says it does 3-2 pulldown for film right on the box!". Turns out that was just for 480i, not 1080i... and you had to do web-searching to find out on various chat forums what the real deal was with the 1080i deinterlacing.

Sheesh!

Hopefully this trend will be changing in a good direction over the next couple of years.

In your case, your processor does it, and as long as you get a display that can accept 1080p24/60 from your processor then you're set.

 

[Cees Alons]

Dave,

Turns out that was just for 480i, not 1080i

Yes, that's.. *typical* indeed!
(BTW, if you ever have a chance to acquire a VP50: highly recommended! It can do almost anything you may need in image processing/scaling/deinterlacing/switching.)
Cees

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I actually contacted them to try to "review" that very product... but they didn't bite. Figured it might be my ticket to an affordable b-stock product... alas! It's the ultimate swiss-army-knife of video switching/scaling/deinterlacing/processing.
:frowning:
Sigh... being a cash-strapped videophile is such a state of sorrow...

 

[Jason Hughes]

The TV I am thinking of buying is the Sony 46" Bravia XBR LCD. What are your thoughts?

 

[Jason Hughes]

Also, another question, sort of off topic. If I hold off on a new TV, but get the PS3, I have a problem: only 1 HDMI input. Is there some sort of adaptor or splitter type device avaliable? I have my existing Sony DVP-NC85H hooked up to the HDMI spot and I don't want to use the PS3 for standard DVDs if I don't need to.

Thanks for everybody's responses.

 

[PeterTHX]

The TV I am thinking of buying is the Sony 46" Bravia XBR LCD. What are your thoughts?

This is pretty much one of the best displays on the market. So good, Sony & *Microsoft* are using it for product demos and QA.
Definitely an upgrade over your previous set.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Agreed about the Sony Bravia. It's the first panel-display I've seen that comes close to "photographic" image quality from a 1.5 screen-width distance... ie, no pixels or grid-structure is visible... the image is silky-smooth and artifact-free like a LCOS front-projector.

I think that set also does proper deinterlacing for film source 1080i but I'm not 100% sure. But if it accepts 1080p natively (which I think it does) that's a good work around with sources like BD and HD DVD that one can input natively at 1080p.

As far as switchers,

Yes, there are HDMI switchers. Cees has a processor that can act as such a switching device, and so can many HDMI recievers. You can also buy stand-alone HDMI switching boxes.

 

[PeterTHX]

think that set also does proper deinterlacing for film source 1080i but I'm not 100% sure. But if it accepts 1080p natively (which I think it does) that's a good work around with sources like BD and HD DVD that one can input natively at 1080p.

It does, it also accepts 24p input.
Also, the VGA input is capable of full 1920x1080p as well, a big deal since a lot of TVs with VGA don't do this.

 

[Cees Alons]

Sigh... being a cash-strapped videophile is such a state of sorrow...

"A cash-strapped videophile" is a tautology, isn't it?

Cees

 

[Brendon]

The PS3 has now launched in the UK and I'm >this< far off buykng one for BluRay duties. I've searched high and low for the answer (including Sony's rather useful US website), but...

Does anyone know if the PS3 can set an audio delay on the optical out for resyncing the displayed picture and audio being processed by a seperate amp? My current amp doesn't allow for setting a delay in order to resync audio with 'delayed' video caused by my LCD display.

This is the last potential deal breaker before plumping for either the PS3 or a dedicated BR player.

 

[Grant H]

Does anyone else have any sync issues with their PS3?
Aside from the wireless networking that I haven't been able to get to work, the one problem I've had is that the PS3 loses sync with my TV at times. Bright flashes, especially frequent with movie trailers.
I used to have this issue with my iScan Ultra as well. Keep in mind I'm running component video to my RCA 38310. When I had this problem with the iScan they had me send it back, changed something, and when I got it back no problem.
This year I had to replace my Ultra and I've had no sync issues with the second unit...unless it is the problem since I'm running the PS3 through the passthrough. Hmm. Though I've yet to have any problems with any of the actual video inputs on it.

 

[PeterTHX]

I think your TV is losing sync with the PS3, not the other way around, especially since you had the issue with the iScan too.
My dealings with anything RCA haven't been pleasant.

 

[Grant H]

It's the iScan. I just bypassed it, and no issues. So I either get the iScan modified (which could be a hassle, though last time they sent me a modified one and I just sent mine back after, which was awesome) or get a switcher.