*** Official ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND DiscussionThread (1 Viewer)

[Quentin]

So many great Kauffmanesque moments too - anyone laugh as hard as I did when David Cross loses it as he's building his birdhouse?! Hilarious!

 

[Seth Paxton]

Well, I'm not really arguing that they will get along fine now with that knowledge, but that they will have PERSPECTIVE on their troubles.

It's a lot easier to deal with a setback when you can see the overall picture, and that is something they now have. They have seen the end of their relationship from the beginning of it via their own words.

It's not that it will be different as much as they will be able to focus better on different aspects. They can see now that while the problems bugged them and will arise again what they have now obviously made it all worth it. After all, when faced with losing everything we know that at least one of them didn't want to. Not just the memories, Joel wanted her back in reality too. He wanted to remember her so that he could get back with her as well as to keep those special memories of her.

That tells me that their decision isn't just "well it will be fun for awhile" because that isn't how he felt about the relationship at the end, he wanted to continue it. And she implies the same because she is impulsive AND because she so strongly rebuked Wood despite him having the advantage of knowing her every desire (and memories with Joel). She is drawn BACK to Joel, even if she has effectively forgotten him.

Its one thing to regret losing your memories but quite another to still want to create new ones. To me their relationship was typical of people who really do love each other but lose perspective of it thanks to day to day crap and the build-up of negative feelings.

Now they will be more capable of dealing with those emotions up front rather than burying them and letting them build.

I'm not trying to pull for my happy ending. I'm saying that the Dunst action almost demands that we see this shift. Without her actions then yes they are doomed to an uninformed repetition, they will follow the same path roughly. But by hearing those words up front from themselves they are not starting "the same way" this time, so it can't follow the same path, happy or otherwise.

Combine that with their genuine desire to seek each other out and get back together DURING the erasure (we assume for her based on her similar actions to Joel) and I think it says that these are two people that do belong together and just needed some help in getting it right.


And that's a theme we've also seen in films like Run Lola Run and Groundhog Day. So I think the final actions release them from any cycle they might have been headed on, and I don't think the narrative gives us any info that suggests a previous erasure.

After all isn't it likely that Joel's friends would strongly frown on him meeting her at the beach cookout, rather than encouraging him like they do? Especially when you consider how David Cross acted about her erasure later when he decided to tell Joel.



Vickie, I agree that losing 40 years for that lady couldn't be good. Obviously I think such a procedure would involve a lot more negative effects than positive ones (if any truly positive ones would exist).


Hearing the walkout stories makes me think that I actually overheard an older couple correctly as I walked out of the theater when the man said something like "that was one of the worst films I've ever seen". At the time I assumed I came into the wrong part of another conversation or something, but now it seems likely that they were discussing Sunshine after all.

If I might arrogantly posture briefly, some people just don't get it. I know that's a shitty stance and its not just because I like this film, but come on. I think I can distinguish story from film quality and even if you don't like the story the film itself does have quality. There's a big difference between "that's not my type of film" and "that's a bad film". The basic premise and narrative structure of this film isn't the least bit confusing and I would consider it a bad sign if someone found the film really bewildering. The subtle meanings of moments is one thing, but not recognizing the "end is the beginning" thing, the flight through his own mind, etc. seems kind of silly.

I wish I could strap the guy down ala Alex and make him watch Tomb Raider, Rollerball, and Freddie Got Fingered on an endless loop for weeks on end. How's that Sunshine film looking now pops?



Having ranted that I guess I still need to see it again to see these shots of future erasures at the end of the film that I missed. :b

 

[Tino]

Ditto to all the positive things being said!

What a wonderful, moving, heart wrenching, incredibly romantic film.

I loved every mind bending, reality twisting, love infused moment of it.

I also subcribe to the "one erasure" theory. I saw no signs indicating otherwise.

Carrey, Winslet, Wilkinson, Ruffalo, Dunst and Wood. A top notch cast that were unifrmly excellent, with Carrey and Winslet standing out above and beyond. Both gave the performances of their careers (so far).

And I love how it ended. That's what love is sometimes. And the fact that they know more this time, perhaps they aren't "fated" to fail.

I left the theater with the message that
hope is eternal, memories are precious, pain is sometimes necessary, and love is unstoppable.

:star::star::star::star:

 

[Chuck Mayer]

He'd probably think "Even worse!" given his likely taste in films. Though I get your point

And I don't think it matters whether their second relationship is going to succeed or fail. It matters that they are willing to TRY. That's the most romantic thing of all. There are no guarantees. It could end MORE painfully...it likely will. But that's what it is all about.

That, and Kate.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[BrianB]

I might be thinking of someone else in the waiting room, but I thought the old lady was clutching a dog-bed & accessories, so it seemed like her canine companion had died & she was getting the memories & sadness removed.

 

[Alex Spindler]

Let this be a lesson to you all, do not disagree with Seth. Trust me, I know. And during Ludwig Van, no less. Make the bad man stop

One of the neatest parts is thinking about how their two 'first meetings' compare. Pre, they're at a group function, and she just zooms in on him. She is, as he says, familiar already. His demeanor is quite different, nowhere near the introvert (although not even close to an extrovert)

Post, he is walking the beach, not sure of why he is there. But he sees her and wishes that he could get to know her. Already he has that connection. But she persistently tries to get his attention, eventually cornering him in his seat. But his infatuation is already begun, what with his drawing. Despite his most sincere effort to avoid the uncomfortability of even the barest intimacy, he ends up spending the night on the ice with her, and thinking the world of her. This is made all the worse by hearing his past/future reaction, that it feels like a lie. In fact, he treats it like someone else is saying it. Almost like he is covering for an uncouth friend.

The fact that they so quickly bonded twice, despite having no tangible remnants of their previous life opens an interesting question: What if your soulmate was someone you are predestined to eventually hate? What if, in the cosmic roll of the dice, the best person for you can only be the best person for as long as it takes to break down? In a strange sense, Lacuna is the only way for them to enjoy the best times with their mate. Even if they only get to start from a fresh start and eventually wish they never knew each other.

 

[Lew Crippen]

One of the bits of optimism that this film inspired in me was the number of people in a local multiplex at 1030 am Sunday—not exactly when you expect a packed theater.

My wife, a friend and I were pleasantly surprised to sit with an appreciative audience in a medium-sized theater about 85% full. And in a suburban multiplex—not exactly a venue where films like this usually wind up.

I don’t know if it was the marketing or the very positive review in the local paper, but I really saw a good turnout. Now maybe this one will have some legs.

BTW, the guess in the Dallas Morning News was that the mainstreaming of DVDs, meant that award contenders could be released now, with DVDs targeted to hit before the award cycle. This article, at least thought that the release timing was deliberate to help the film out—at least as far as awards go.

 

[DaveGTP]

It's funny, we saw this on Friday night. There were less than 20 people there (probably more like a dozen).

Definitely this is the first time through the loop, but the end definitely implies more after that!

 

[Brad Porter]

Three questions:

1. What was causing Joel to cry during the title sequence? Can anyone tie this to something that we saw during the memory erasing parts? Was this when he was returning home after the big break-up?

2. During the break-up memory sequence, Clem is walking away down the side of the street. A car suddenly drops out of the sky and crashes beside her. We later see multiple instances of Joel's car pulled up to the sidewalk as he wanders back and forth on the same street. What is going on here? Are more recent memories more volatile? Is this just Joel first experiencing the disorientation associated with memory erasure? How did the break-up really end?

3. Did anyone else feel that when Joel and Clem were visually represented by two little kids in front of Joel's childhood home (the smothering scene) that the use of voice-over only was out of place with the rest of the memories. It started to feel like a "Look Who's Talking" film for a moment there. I didn't want them to digitally superimpose moving mouths over the kids, but I wouldn't have minded seeing more of Kate in the cowgirl outfit.

By the way, I loved the film. It's the only one I've seen so far this year, and I expect that I won't see a better one until at least November.

Brad

 

[Jeff Adams]

I am at work right now so do not have time to give an in depth review but all I have to say is WOW! I was blown away by the genuine feel and emotion of this absolutely brilliant film. The year is still young and this will be on my top 5 list of the year for sure! 2004 has started out the way 2003 ended, with top notch spectacular films. Keep them coming!

 

[Stephen_L]

I'm still contemplating my first viewing of this film, I the more I think about it the richer it seems.

With more thought, I've changed my earlier opinion about multiple erasures. The film gives evidence of only one for Joel and Clementine. What confused me I think is the fractured chronology of starting with Joel post-wipe, then jumping back to his decision to wipe. I had assumed that was another repetition but was probably only fiddling with the time frame by the filmmaker.

On the happy ending- unhappy ending debate, I'm still on the side of unhappiness. What made the film's conclusion so poignant to me, was that both characters knew that their differences would lead to eventual breakup but that they were willing to take the journey anyway to enjoy the good times together. To accept unhappiness ahead of time, before the relationship seems profoundly romantic and brave to me. More than two people now determined with 'insider' knowledge to make their relationship work differently.

 

[Seth Paxton]

SAT night, 9:30, maybe 30 people in the whole place, mostly empty.

 

[Seth Paxton]

The car falling is part of the destruction of the memory and not part of the real memory, just as during the real original moments they didn't discuss that she was being erased. We are seeing tainted memories throughout, usually marked by actions that indicate destruction of that memory.

And don't confuse that with the reality that she came home drunk one night and ran his car into the fire hydrant which led to that fight. Of course near the beginning of the film Joel walks out and sees his car torn up but has no memory of how it happened and assume the guy parking next to him did it. That scene occurs POST erasure for Joel naturally.


BTW, maybe my view of the film stems from my own experience. My wife and I lived together for 6+ years before getting married. By that point we had certainly learned to dislike a lot of things about each other, but we would never give up the good stuff to solve that problem. We got married much in the same way Joel and Clem get together at the end, knowing the flaws and prepared to deal with them, not with the expectation that we'll have fun until the inevitable divorce.

For Joel and Clem I think they simply learned that there is more good than bad and that breaking up to eliminate the bad cost them far more than staying together did, thus they decide to go for it.

After all, what point is there in going for it till you find out about the things you hate when you already learned all the things you hate up front. If you hear yourself complain about that "noise she makes" or "how much she drinks" and it's going to make you break up aren't you already hyper-aware of those flaws and now won't really be able to enjoy the good times as some of you suggest. That's another reason why I don't just think its a "let's just enjoy what we have now till it falls apart" because it has basically already fallen apart when they heard the very bitter and harsh criticisms from each other. Clearly they were both very upset after hearing each other's tapes and would not be able to just not worry about it.

They could get erased again of course, but they sure don't act like that's what they want at the end. They act like they are willing to FORGIVE each other for those cruel words, not to walk on till they finally hear them. I mean one of the biggest comments to cause the breakup was Joel saying she f***ed people to get attention and IIRC she hears him say the same thing on the tape. So what "innocence" is left to enjoy in the relationship? IMO, none, at least in the sense of "we'll ride it out till it turns bitter". That just doesn't make sense in the context of their actions and what they've already said to each other via the tapes.

The first time around they said these things to each other (over time) and that made them break up. This 2nd time they say all these things to each other immediately and decide to stay together. Seems cut and dry to me that in both turns they have already reached the same stage of the relationship, ie after all the nasty comments have been made about each other.

 

[Stephen_L]

Seth, God bless you, you're an optimist. This film is very much like a Rourshak (pardon the spelling) test for people and their relationships. Watching it resonated with your experience of knowing your partner's flaws yet chosing to stick with them. I, on the other hand, have just come off divorce, which of course, colors my opinion that some relationships will fail but that even with the pain, the experience of a relationship can have value. Hence my read on the ending. That's a sign of a great film; it can speak to different life experiences in a satisfying way.

The one thing I believe is beyond debate, is the fact that after learning of the mind-wipe, both characters will try again, but good or bad, will never again erase their memories of each other. That is how learning about the wipe changes how they will live.

 

[TheLongshot]

I saw it last night and really enjoyed the film. I didn't find the structure confusing at all. Course, it helped that I was spoiled on some things from this thread.

I think what the ending is saying that there are no guarantees. Joel and Clementine knowing everything isn't nessicarily going to change things for them, but they "know" the good things that they shared together were real. While they don't remember them, it seems obvious to me that there are some ghosts there that still exist that tell me that they still have something.

In the end, this movie is about losing perspective. When the end of the relationship is marked with meaness and fighting, often that's all you remember, and you forget about the good things which made your relationship in the first place. The arguments felt real to me, especially Joel's "I don't want to talk about this right now" argument. It isn't the first time something came out of my mouth that I wasn't ready to talk about it to my other half, and ends up getting blown up.

Jason

 

[Quentin]

Well...I would beg to differ.

Of course, that's a valid interpretation, but beyond debate?

I just wanted to pop in again to say, no matter what your interpretation, this is quite a wonderful film.

Oddly, my good friend hated it. Two reasons took center stage: 1) He thought it was going to be a Kauffman "wacky comedy" and is not all that funny. 2) He HATED Clem. I have to agree with him, that she is a bit of a weakness of the film. It can be hard (it was for him) to sympathize/empathize with anyone so obnoxious. I think she should have had some more appealing qualities. Of course, Kate made me like her enough.

 

[Patrick Sun]

But on the flipside, the heart wants what the heart wants. Who can really quantify what really attracts one person to another person? As unlikely a couple Clementine and Joel were, in their little world, they clicked, and connected.

 

[Stephen_L]

Quentin, you are right, nothing is beyond debate.:wink:

I do feel strongly that both will never consider mindwipe again. First, Joel was not enthusiastic about forgetting Clementine; he was trying to reconcile with her when he learned she had undergone the procedure. He only did it out of spite and hurt after she had done it. Also, the fact that both are reentering the relationship knowing that it could easily end badly (and had ended badly once before) suggests to me that they've both acquired the perspective to understand the value of the relationship no matter how it ends and wouldn't seek to erase it again.

 

[Tino]

Btw, how funny was that "humiliation" scene?

Seeing it again on Sunday with the wife. You know...for therapy.

 

[Quentin]

Absolutely, Patrick. The heart does want what it wants...but, an audience also wants what it wants. And, most audiences want to LIKE the people they have to care about.

Clearly, none of us had a problem with her...but, I can see the problem from an objective POV.