*** Official "BLACK HAWK DOWN" Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Ty Zucker]

In response to what someone posted above about the American bullets not making large wounds... In the book, one of the Delta soldiers actually talks/ponders this issue. Just about everyone used the latest and greatest armor piercing rounds, except for Randy Shugar (sp?) who used an older (and heavier) rifle, yet one that put people down rather than poking holes in them.

The tape on the grenades is mentioned in the book as well. I don't remember exactly what it was for (I'd have to go skim through the book) but I vaguely remember it having something to do with the pin not coming out as easy or something related to safety/efficiency in combat.

I also think Crawdaddy is right: this isn't the place to discuss American/Anti-American policy or sentiment. Are we now going to complain about the one-sidedness of Das Boot? No one is denying that the whole policy of U.S. presence in Somalia was a big mess. Mark Bowden makes is very clear in the book (and thus the movie) that the purpose of Black Hawk Down is NOT to make a statement on American foreign policy, western civilization, or any other type of politics. The sole purpose of Black Hawk Down is to tell the story (without political commentary) of this particular raid from the perspective of the U.S. soldiers involved. If there's anything that Mark Bowden really wanted to get across in terms of a "statement" I think it's that the U.S. soldiers involved were simply pawns in a much larger game.

 

[Mark E J]

Ty,

I completely agree. The whole point of the movie is to show what the soldiers went through that day, and to explain why they risk their lives for an objective that they themselves might not agree with: To protect the man next to him. It never meant to try to explain whole story of America foreign policy.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Tim, you ran with my comment in a totally different direction first of all.

I simply meant the PORTRAYAL, phsically speaking, of the Somalian movement. The swarming groups with those kinds of numbers.

Meaning, if I looked down from a helicopter at that time, DID IT LOOK LIKE THAT.

Apparently it did.

As for bias...wtf? First of all we see the teacher with her kids (among many non-aggressive Somalians), we see at least one Somalian militia BLOWN APART (maybe you missed that part), we see the Somalians in the "safe" part of town cheering for the Americans.

IN THE FILM, it is clear that Somalia contains many different people with many different desires. My question was only how TRUE to reality the PHYSICAL events were. Did this really happen then, did this group move here or there, etc.

Again, it sounds like it did from those that have researched it more than me.

But like Robert, I'm going to read the book now because my interest in the events is piqued again.

 

[Gruson]

Bruckheimer does it again.

GREAT movie.

 

[Michael*K]

Perhaps this was covered in the book and I hate to be gruesome, but had a nagging question after seeing the film. I find the "Leave no man behind" motto to be extremely moving...putting lives in danger to remove even dead members of the unit. With that in mind, were the bodies of the Rangers that were dragged through the street and mutilated ever recovered and brought back to the U.S. to be properly interred? So sad if they weren't.

 

[Heath L]

I just got back from watching BHD and it is, in my opinion, the best war movie I have ever seen. The whole purpose of war movies is to try to realistically depict combat and its effects on the war-fighter. BHD did it better then any I have seen before.

As for Tim's comments of one-sidedness.....Platoon never showed me why the VC were after us, SPR never only introduced us to one enemy soldier (and much of that was of him begging for his life) without really going into how the Germans felt about us.

I'm curious Tim....how do you think the view of Shugart, Gordon, and Wolcott's bodies being dragged through the streets of Mog would differ any if shot from the Somali point of view? Would they make it look Patriotic to their country?

As for some people's (and critics) gripes about not having enough character development for the audience to identify with the characters. I think Eric Bana's character, Hoot Gibson had one line near the end of the movie that gave me all the development I needed to identify with all the soldiers in the movie:

"They'll never get it........it's about the man next to you."

Some of us get it, some of us don't.

 

[Derrick G]

The tape on the grenade pins was there to hold the pins in better. It makes for a bad day when you crawl across some debris and hook a pin on something.
The History channel is going to have a two hour special on the True Story of BlackHawk Down on Monday 01/21/02, 9:00 PM eastern.
Derrick G

 

[Mark E J]

Michael,

All the bodies were ultimately recovered. No one was left behind.

Seth,

it is clear that Somalia contains many different people with many different desires.

This is absolutely true. We must remember that only the members of the Habr Gidr clan considered themselves at war with America. The rest of Somalia was in support of UN Peacekeepers. I don't think the scene at the end with cheering crowds is discribed in the book, but according the Rangers who were there this really happened.

 

[Brad_W]

I just saw this film last night and I must say that I was a bit worried going in because of the Michael Bay production. But I was very impressed with the film and it only got over-dramatic in one or two spots and even that didn't bother me.

I would agree with some people that the film doesn't let you know the characters, but then I thought about it and realized that you don't have to know these characters... just what they did.

I really enjoyed this film a lot and will go see it again. The one scene that made me cringe was "The Thumb Scene." I love it!

 

[Michael Hudson]

Like I said on another forum the only problem I had with the movie were the Oakleys at the start of the movie. They were not out in 1993 so it would be hard for him to be wearing them. Besides that is was a great movie very moving.

 

[Jerry Gracia]

Movies like BLACK HAWK DOWN remind you of how important it is to respect the men and women of our armed forces.
After seeing a movie like this, you realize how trivial your "problems" are.
:star: :star: :star: :star: (out of 4)
A great war film that shouldn't be missed!

 

[Kenneth]

I agree with the others that this is a great movie and it serves as a fitting tribute to the men (and women) who serve our country and to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in its service. A must see for everyone.

Kenneth

 

[MickeS]

I saw it yesterday and loved it.
I do agree with Tim though, it would have been an even better movie if more of the enemy side had been shown, as it was it was a pretty one-sided story. I do understand WHY, but talking from a pure cinematic point of view I think it could have been better had it not only been about american soldiers. That said, I don't think anyone in the audience felt indifferent when for example the helicopter swooped down on the rooftop and used the mini-gun to take out all those Somali soldiers. Even though it wasn't an up-close view, we all know what happened.
I found the movie to be totally engrossing, and the depiction of combat was very, very intense.
I can't say I agree with the comment above that "Jerry Bruckheimer has done it again", to me he's done it for the first time.
There were some "Bruckheimer moments" in the movie, but they were few and far between, and had I not known that it was a JB production I wouldn't even have noticed.
/Mike

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Maybe it's me...but I felt the movie was more about brotherhood and courage than about American soldiers doing American things. It used an event in the US history to tell a timeless lesson. It was more poignant for me as an American (and understanding men and women in the military), but I thought the themes were universal. The power of the narrative didn't allow much time with the enemy, and I think any such drastic moments would have diluted the impact. While I am patriotic and proud, I never once thought "Yeah, get that Somali, F*** Them." I felt sadness for their unbelieveable poverty and somewhat hopeless situation. I was quite pleased that MANY of the actors were not American. That could have easily been SAS (British or Australian), Canadian Special Forces, or even the many fighting men in countries I couldn't find on a map.
Courage and sacrifice are not American values. I am proud that our soldiers embodied those (and continue to do so) in this story. Black Hawk Down is more universal than it is being credited with, especially in our local press.
Leave no man behind is a powerful creed, and there is plenty of blood to prove it, going a lot farther back than 1776.
Take care,
Chuck

 

[Kenneth]

I agree that the themes were universal and by no means limited to a single country. However, I think there is also a contrast between the traditional forces (go out, do your job, bring you and your men back alive) with the human wave forces (which the Somalies represented). The other side literally threw themselves into combat with no regard for their safety (or the safety of those around them). I am not sure if there is any message there besides the stark contrast between the two.

Kenneth

 

[Tim Raffey]

I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-jingoistic, pro-American bullshit.

To me, the movie's dangerous (much in the same way that Birth of a Nation was), if technically marvelous (again, like Birth of a Nation). Sorry if I wanted to discuss it in the discussion thread without getting pelted with the accusation of being "anti-American" (about as bad as you can get these days).

 

[Mark E J]

Tim,

I have no way of knowing wether you are anti-America or not nor do I care. Everybody has a right to their own opinion. But exactly how is the truth dangerous?

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Tim,

How do you feel this movie is dangerous? I won't even claim it's the "truth", but I feel it was as accurate as possible given the information available. I am sincerely wondering where you feel it is jingoistic. I feel very strongly about my country...I have served it in a very thankless and miserable field, but I also feel I am open-minded and realistic about the good and the bad . I didn't see it. If I did, I would be right there with you. Believe me, I am trying to understand your point of view.

Take care,

Chuck

 

[Jin E]

I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-jingoistic, pro-American bullshit.

jin·go·ism

n.

Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

I guess I didn't see the same movie you did. Please elaborate what in the movie was Jingoistic.

BTW... I'm not pro-American; I'm anti-unpatriotic, un-American bullshit.

 

[Max Leung]

I thought this movie was excellent. Very well done, and, as I expected, makes no attempt other than to portray the events as accurately as possible, from the point of view of the U.S. servicemen that were there (with a little from the Somalian side, or as much as could be gathered without undue risk).
Now, as for Tim's reaction: As a fellow Canadian, who has been exposed to as much anti-American propaganda as any other Canadian here (although nearly all in the form of jokes), I could detect no pro-American, jingoistic patriotism in this movie. It is "merely" an accurate portrayal of the events, as witnessed by the people who were there. If you have a beef about the accuracy of the movie, you really should be raining down on the eye-witnesses (who were the combatants). Go ahead. Talk to the author of the book. Go ahead and call up the men who were there, on the phone or email them. Chastise them for peppering their account with "pro-American" rhetoric and colouring their account with jingoism...impying that they are not telling the truth because they are "biased". Oh gee, the pilot was holding the picture of his family before the mob beat him and took him away. Oh that is such an obvious pro-American propaganda ploy. :rolleyes
Look, from my point-of-view, it seems to me that you have brought in your own biases in your assessment of this movie. At the very least you should acknowledge them, just like any good movie reviewer would (like Roger Ebert), as it aids in the discussion and allows us to properly evaluate your view.