No center channel, thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[JimmyK]

The trick is finding one that matches

In my experience, this is crucial. I went without a center for years, but when listening to a well matched system tha included a center, I found I prefered the well matched system with a center.

Fortunately, I have a local dealer who let me take center speakers home to try out with my system. After trying 5 different centers, I did find one that was a good match.

I would agree that if you can go with 3 identical speakers up front, that would be ideal (in my case it wasn't possible as I am using large towers for L&R). If you can't, then it's a matter of experimenting to see what works best. If I was unable to find a good match for my main speakers, then I would certainly not be using a center today.

JimmyK

 

[Ted Lee]

make sure you post your results albert. i'll be curious as to what your conclusion is!

having an identical center would definitely be optimal, but i don't know how realistic that would be in most people's homes.

 

[steven pm]

Lots of talk about 'logic' and 'theory', but it really *is* easy to test/compare a center to no center speaker on most receivers just by switching 'phantom center' mode on and off. No real need to speculate when a simple test will give hard data. I've done so, both earlier (when I had 3 identical SuperZeros in front) and more recently with a SuperCenter in the middle. In both cases, the dialog was less anchored and sounded more 'hollow' to me as well, even when sitting straight ahead in the sweet spot. Also, the SC sounds a bit more full than the SZ (which was identical to the L/R's). A sweeping white noise signal (for level calibration) sounds very uniform across the front. Also, anchoring of dialog towards the left and right sides of the screen is much more 'solid' with a center channel; not all of the speech comes simply from dead-center.

Albert, please report back to us with your impressions after you try some tests. BTW, there will always be interferences from 2 speakers creating sound from a virtual center source (even in the 'sweet spot') that will not be there with an actual center speaker present. And this is (I believe) the source fo the perceived 'hollowness' of the phantom mode.

 

[Chriss M]

again i think it comes down to the quality of the speakers and their imaging abilities. With a good 2-channel music system, you never hear anyone say that the singer's voice sounded hollow due to a lack of a dedicated center speaker to reproduce the vocals. If 2 speakers are good enough to reproduce music vocals, why would movie dialog be any different?

Another issue that is introduced with a dedicated center is the change in the height as the image movies across the front sound stage. Unless you have a front projector (and in that case you'd have an identical center speaker anyway) it's going to be impossible to have your three front speakers at the same height. Tilting helps, but it's still easy to tell when sound from one speaker is originating from a point higher or lower than the others. Try it with some pink noise pan and listen as the sound seems to raise (or lower) as it moves across the front three speakers.

 

[Phil*K]

Hey Albert,

My intention wasn't to convince you of what to do but to add to the information that was being presented in the overall discussion.

Phil

 

[Ted Lee]

If 2 speakers are good enough to reproduce music vocals, why would movie dialog be any different?

good question - i had to think about it for a second.

obviously excluding multi-channel recordings, music is mixed with only two speakers in mind. also, there's enough other stuff going on (namely instruments) that help to blend everything together.

with a movie, it's mixed with the intent of having a dedicated center speaker. most of a movie is dialog - the emphasis is on the person talking in the center of the screen. you gotta be able to anchor that sound.

i do agree that panning effects could suffer, but they're typically a small part of the soundtrack.

 

[Albert Damico]

Phil*k;

I understood that

 

[Phil*K]

Albert

Chris,

The center channel in movies does more than anchor, although this is its main purpose. But it also plays sounds that still come from the mains. For example music and the aspect it plays is different giving you a more spacial arrangement. Same thing with other sounds such as the russling of leaves. This is different than a stereo recording, which was originally intended to be played on two speakers in the first place. It sounds hollow in movies because they were designed with a center channel in mind. They don't sound hollow in two channel stereo recordings because they were designed with two channels in mind.

The other aspect that a good center will give you is a more real presentation of movement accross the front soundstage. Take for example, the subtle sceen in "Road to Perdition" where the kids are playing craps with Paul Newman. The dice start out loud on the left, fade a little in the center, and come to rest on the right. You'll get this effect with two channels, but it is more realistic with the center channel in place, IMO. This is much more apparent when the train passes by while the assasin is smothering the man with the knife in his chest. The train is IMO just more real sounding with the center channel in place as you get movement of the train sounds through all three speakers.

One other nice feature is that ability to adjust independantly the centers output.

The Center channel does more than just dialogue,

Phil

 

[steven pm]

Chris, it is *not* just the quality of the speakers. 2 speakers will produce interference, in certain frequency ranges, that adding a center will not. Regardless of how accurate or 'good' the speakers are.

As for speaker heights, why is it 'impossible' to have 3 fronts at the same height? I must be a miracle maker, tehn--my three front speakers are at the same height. And it didn't seem that hard to accomplish at all. My center is on top of my rptv. The L&R are about a foot from each end of the screen, sittin gon freestanding shelves (away from any back wall) *at the same height*! Wow. $^)

And Phil describes well the benefit of the center speaker when panning. It allows a full range of apparent source locations, from far left to center to far right. Dialog doesn't merely come from dead center; nor do other effects. There are 3 separate sound channels in front, and they are mixed to give a front soundstage that allows sound to appear to emanate from various lateral positions.

Which brings me back to the opriginal point. I've only tried this a few times, but I've never heard a soundstage that sounds solid with just L & R fronts; it always sounds better with a center. And I'm sure the 2-speaker interference (happens with *any* quality of speaker) is a big part of the reason.

 

[Chriss M]

Maybe i should have phrased that a bit differently. With an RPTV it is impossible to have all three speakers at the optimum listening height. If you main speakers' tweeter is at the same level with your center, then either your mains are too high, your RPTV is REALLY small, or you watch standing up


I do not argue the fact that an identical center channel speaker is the optimum configuration. However i do feel that that any disadvatages caused by any sort of cancellation or interference when running phantom center are less than those created by a horizontially positioned dedicated center speaker sitting atop or below of the TV, for a single listener seated in the sweet spot.

These are just my personal findings over the past couple of years with the various configurations i have had. This includes Paradigm Monitor 3/CC370 , Paradigm Studio 40/Studio CC, Swan Diva 6.1/Diva C3, and VMPS 626R/no center.

 

[Albert Damico]

In my first test of this last night. I listened to several scenes from Star Wars (Pod racing scene) and the Beach scene from Saving Private Ryan. While none of the dialog was lost and the effects transistioned seamlessly across the front, there did seem to be a "hollow" sound from time to time. Not overbearing, but real. Today I will experiment with moving the mains in and out to see if it was speaker placement or actually something else. As for optimal speaker height, Chris. In your opinion, would I suffer more with the center at 5' and the mains 2' lower (as they are now), or despite the fact that they may be higher than normal, would you think that building some sort of stand and raising the mains up to around 4' would match them better with the center.

 

[Tony Genovese]

Albert:

A couple of thoughts. First off, stereo (back in the 50's) was originally supposed to contain 3 channels: right, center and left. The center channel was to be used to maintain a solid center image, no matter where you sat. It also helps to eliminate a bit of that hollowness you're hearing. The reason it never took off (3 channel stereo) was that there was no carrier device (phonograph record or tape) at the time that could hold 3 channels. Hence, we were stuck with the compromise of 2 channels.

As I stated in another thread, the center is going to sound slightly different than the left and right. But if you have a well matched center to your fronts (which it appears you don't) you will not hear different tonality. The reason you hear the majority of the dialogue from the center channel, is that's where it's mixed. If you heard it anywhere else, something wouldn't be functioning properly.

 

[Chriss M]

ALbert,

I wouldn't. I think your best solution is to position your mains at the optimum listening height, and then angle your center up or down, pointing the tweeter at your listening position so it intersects vertically with your mains at your seat. If you really want to be exact about it, use a laser pointer to line everything up, and a pair of door stoppers behind your center to adjust the angle.

 

[steven pm]

I still have equal-height on-axis fronts. My center has a rear adjustable leg that I used to aim down slightly, so the main tweeter axis is at listerner's ear height. And slightly higher feet on the rear of my L/R speakers give them the same tilt. SO all 3 are at the same height, and all 3 are on-axis at the listening/seating positions.

Albert, your best bet is to simply tilt your center down slightly, so that the speaker front points directly at ear-hright in the seating position. Sounds like your L/R will already be set up at the right height. Also, be sure the front of your center speaker is all the way at (or slightly forward of) the front edge of the tv/shelf that it's on. Setting it back from the edge even a bit can cause unwanted reflections and impair sound dispersion.

Although I'm sure Chris will recommend something different! $^)

 

[Doug_B]

My 2 cents:

I think there are good arguments on both sides. One point not made that I've experienced is degraded center channel performance when the center speaker is sitting on top of a TV. I was very much considering using a phantom center (and my mains are up to the task for dialog) until I made a center speaker stand and placed it in front of the TV. The center speaker then lived up to its billing (and I noticed it was a good match for my mains, esp with dialog).

Now I have a projector, so my center is about 2 feet under my screen pointed up slightly. I have noticed no panning issues and no lack of dialog anchoring to the screen. Maybe if I closed my eyes for certain scenes that best test these attributes, I may notice some of these issues, but with the "distraction" of the movie visual, it is just seamless enjoyment.

Doug

 

[Chriss M]

i think we're in agreement this time also, agreed on the positioning of the center on the TV. Very important to pull it forward, hanging a bit over the edge of the TV frame. I use little rubber feet placed about 1" back from the front edge of the center speaker to keep it secured on the TV.

 

[steven pm]

OK, so I'm not totally nuts!

Does putting the center below the screen really help? I had considered that, placing it on my sub right in front. (That space is pretty much unused anyway.) However, the L & R can't be located any lower, so there would be a big height difference. durnit!

 

[Phil*K]

I have mine located below the TV. Actually it's in the top shelf of my rack, which is open on all sides. Luckily there's only about 2" difference between the height of my main tweeters and the tweeter of the center. In this position the center point right at the top of the sofa, without having to adjust the tilt.

Phil

 

[Albert Damico]

Putting the center channel under the screen would be ideal, were it not for the fact that I have a RPTV. Consequently there is no shelf or rack that my set sits on where a center channel can be located. I do have the center channel up to the edge of the TV and I have it angled down about 1". One issue is that my RPTV is 5' high. So the center channel sits 5' high. My towers are a normal 36" or so in height so there is about a two foot difference. While I have never been entirely satisfied with a center speaker, it was not nearly as noticible when using my Yamaha RX-V2095 as the heart of my system. I recently upgraded to a Sherborun 7/2100 amp and a B&K Reference 50 pre/pro. My system in whole sounds incredibly better and much more dynamic, but the center channel also became much more dominant.

 

[Phil*K]

Albert,

I see your problem and one I'll have when I move and get my big screen out of storage. It does sound as if your new equipement has magnified what you feel are short commings in your center channel. I wonder if it might be a good idea to try a different speaker. I noticed that you have Infinity speakers and I don't know how well they'd match with the Interlude series, but the Il36 is a well respected center channel or maybe trying one of the new Kappa centers. There is also a new Alpha 37C out but I haven't listened to it. Anyway, just food for thought.

Phil