New to Blu Ray, am I seeing things?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Nelson Au, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Hey guys-

    I just got a blu ray player for Christmas, I opened it early! I got the 2 James Bond box sets last month in anticipation.

    I have the Sony BDP-S550 connected to the Pioneer 1130HD 1080i plasma display. The Bond films are the only BD discs I have, other then Hancock which was free as part of the Sony promotion.

    I've watched Dr. No, Die Another Day and the first half of From Russia with Love. What I am wondering about is I noticed during panning shots in From Russia With Love and Dr. No, some slight jittering (For a lack of a better word) going on. What I mean is that I notice in the cinema, whenever there is a panning shot, camera moving across a room for example, I can see some slight jittering, or what I think I am seeing are the individual still frames. Perhaps it's some kind of perception thing going on when film is projected.

    So I was surprised to see the same thing going on with the Blu Ray disc. I cannot do 1080/24 on this display. Some people with Toshiba HD-DVD players have been able to force it on that Pioneer display that was built one month later then mine. (I tried with my Toshiba HD-DVD player) But I do have the Pioneer's version of 3:2 pull down activated. Or what they call 3:3 as their way to make the 30 fps of video look like 24 fps.

    So what I am curious about is, am I actually seeing from blu ray material a more film like experience? I tried the 3:3 pull down off and I think it did not make a difference. I tried the SD DVD of From Russia With Love (when the camera pans back from the chess players in Venice) and didn't see this jitter happen on the Sony BD Player. Whether the 3:3 pull down is working or not, it's a great looking picture and perhaps for the first time, I am actually getting a film like experience(?) If I am not, it's still looking great![​IMG]
     
  2. Stephen_J_H

    Stephen_J_H All Things Film Junkie
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    673
    Location:
    North of the 49th
    Real Name:
    Stephen J. Hill
    The jitter you describe is quite common and can actually be seen in movie theatres. It is a by-product of film being shot and projected @ 24fps. The theatres try to fix this by using power rectifiers, but it doesn't really work.

    Some of the newer 120 Hz displays attempt to rectify this, but the end product winds up looking like video IMHO. I much prefer something that is truer to the theatre experience.
     
  3. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Thanks Stephen. Yes, that was what I was referring to seeing the jitter in the cinemas verse home theater where I've not seen the jitter. So this is pretty cool, I like it! I guess the combination of my particular display and settings and the BD does feel like a film-like experience!
     
  4. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1998
    Messages:
    5,820
    Likes Received:
    317
    Real Name:
    Lou Sytsma
    Quite a keen eye Nelson. Enjoy your BR player.
     
  5. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Hi Lou! Yes, I placed another foot down the HiDef path in preparation for that certain franchise we're familiar with to be released in blu.

    Enjoy the holidays!
     
  6. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2000
    Messages:
    5,969
    Likes Received:
    282

    How are power rectifiers used to correct for this? They convert to DC, filter out any AC component, and then use the DC to power the projector motors? Just curious.
     
  7. RickER

    RickER Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    5,130
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Real Name:
    Rick
    Nelson, enjoy my friend!
    Keep an eye out with Amazon for the best prices on discs. I have been going crazy this last month!
     
  8. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Hey Rick! Thanks, I am and I will! I have been looking at discs at the Costco site too to compare pricing and selections. But Amazon seems to have the deals.
     
  9. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    5,514
    Likes Received:
    12


    They also use 5 bladed shutters to try and eliminate flicker, however it never really gets rid of the judder. Thats the nature of a film shot at 24 frames per second and part of what we think of as the film look. In fact I'll go as far as to say that the 24fps judder is 90% of the film look.

    I have to agree that some of the 120hz TVs that use "motion smoothing" just make the thing look like video. The motion smoothing effect also seems to add digital artifacts. If they would just let the thing run at 120hz with no effect it would look exactly like the film does in the theater.

    Doug
     
  10. Dick

    Dick Producer
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 1999
    Messages:
    5,470
    Likes Received:
    1,507
    Real Name:
    Rick
    I really wish that, back at the end of the silent era, studios had decided to set the standard at 30 FPS instead of 24, which would have been more expensive by 20% but would have eliminated a lot of flicker and the sort of "jitter" problems described above during pans. Oh, well. What ever happened to Trumbel's ShowScan?
     
  11. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    5,514
    Likes Received:
    12


    I've seen showscan. It looks like a very highly detailed version of the evening news. Really, it looks for all the world like video tape. I don't really like the look of it. It really never got beyond the amusement park type installation, mainly because of the expense.

    Frankly I really like the look of 24fps and given the choice that's what I shoot.

    Doug
     
  12. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    It is what it is and it's pretty cool that one can actually experience flicker from a blu-ray disc in a home theater! The ability to see the flicker I agree is part of the film like experience.
     
  13. Bruce Morrison

    Bruce Morrison Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Nelson,

    I think some people are more sensitive than others to the film judder inherent in horizontal panning shots - I'm also very aware of it when watching Blu-rays and DVDs of movies. As others have said, it's a natural consequence of the relatively slow frame rate (24 fps) used to shoot film, and you shouldn't expect Blu-ray to be any better than standard-def DVD in this respect. I haven't seen a demo of a TV that has motion smoothing by generating interpolated frames, but most other people seem to think the result looks unnatural anyway.

    Incidentally a small correction to your original post. Your plasma TV is not a native 1080i set; its native resolution is actually 1024 x 768, and all fixed pixel-based panel TVs, i.e. plasmas and LCDs, display images progressively rather than interlaced by the very nature of the technology. I think you were probably referring to the fact that the TV can accept a 1080i signal, but it will then downscale and deinterlace it to display it at 768p.
     
  14. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,413
    Likes Received:
    4,358
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    Nelson,

    Just wanted to pop in here and welcome you to the Blu-ray club!

    Enjoy!
     
  15. Vern Dias

    Vern Dias Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 1999
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rectifiers are required in theatres because both carbon arc and Xenon lamps require DC and the mains are AC. All this has absolutely nothing to do with blurring effect you see on the screen on fast pans or fast action.

    No theatre would ever use a 5 bladed shutter. However, they were used on telecine chains in TV stations.

    Back in the silent days, 3 bladed shutters were used to minimize flicker due to the lower frame rates. However, in today's theatres, screens are too large and the additional light loss caused by a 3 bladed shutter would be unacceptable.


    Vern
     
  16. Joseph Bolus

    Joseph Bolus Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    2,396
    Likes Received:
    133
    Question: If Nelson's plasma could have accepted 1080p/24, would that have reduced the judder?

    Isn't that supposed to be the advantage of a 1080p/24 Hz source?
     
  17. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,468
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Hey Ron, Thanks for the welcome to the Blu Ray club! It's going to be fun!

    Bruce, thanks for the clarification on my display's resolution. I forget about that since I can more easily remember that the set is designed to accept a 1080i input. And I've been wanting to get a true 1080p display, someday! Best for me to just ignore that info and blissfully think I have a 1080 screen![​IMG]

    Joseph, I was curious about that too. But I don't really notice the jutter too often, I was probably looking too closely at the screen whilst checking out what blu ray looks like. If I sit too closely as I did, then I notice it. Both in the theater and at home now!
     
  18. Bruce Morrison

    Bruce Morrison Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0

    It would have eliminated one theoretical source of judder - that due to the 3:2 pulldown that is used to correct the running speed of a movie that would otherwise play at the wrong speed. This applies to all standard definition DVDs of movies mastered in NTSC for example. It would also apply to Blu-ray discs if the 24p playback can not be used.

    However this type of judder is extremely subtle, and would only be apparent on very slow panning shots. Many people, including myself, never notice it at all.

    24p playback does nothing to reduce the much more noticeable judder that is inherent in all films during medium-speed panning shots. This is what the OP was referring to.
     
  19. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    5,514
    Likes Received:
    12


    You are right I was thinking of film chain projectors that have 5 blades. However 3 bladed shutters are fairly common. I was a projectionist at a 7 auditorium theater that had Christy projectors with 3 bladed or 72hz shutters.

    Doug
     
  20. John Hermes

    John Hermes Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes Received:
    789
    Location:
    La Mesa (San Diego) CA
    Real Name:
    John Hermes

    Yes, a three-blade shutter will get rid of any hint of flicker at 24 fps, whereas in very bright scenes at theaters with two-blade shutters, you can see a bit of flicker sometimes.
     

Share This Page