New Hard Boiled DVD has dubtitles (1 Viewer)

[Edward Schatz]

I can't recall who but someone put it appropriately when they looked at a screenshot from "Police Story" and said that it looked like a nuclear weapon had gone off behind Jackie Chan - the picture was that blown out. Brian White, as far as the Asian Cinema forums go, is behind the various blunders at Dragon Dynasty. He is of HK Legends infamy. Disagree if you'd like. Furthermore, while I try to restrain my highly critical and downright offensive streak, those of you who defend the use of dubtitles and/or attack fans of Asian cinema as enjoying those "crappy HK action films" are downright ignorant and perhaps devoid of an intellectual ability to enjoy film. I apologize in advance for said comments but there is often a lot of ingorance and/or animosity directed towards advocates of Asian cinema being treated fairly and well.

 

[IanD]

So far, the Dragon Dynasties have the following issues

Police Story - Poor picture, far inferior to the original HD source, with blown out colours and contrast

Police Story 2 - inferior Japanese cut used instead of HK director's cut

My Young Auntie - Mandarin soundtrack in place of correct Cantonese soundtrack

Hard Boiled - dubtitles

And less anyone thinks this is a fluke, check out these flaws from HKL

Snake In The Eagle's Shadow/Drunken Master/Legend Of A Fighter - All cropped from 2.35:1 to 1.85:1 and inncorrect Mandarin tracks used

Big Boss/Way Of The Dragon - Incorrect Cantonese tracks used instead of the correct Mandarin ones

New Dragon Inn - Incorrect Mandarin track used instead of correct Cantonese

Magnificent Warriors - cropped from 2.35:1 to 2.06:1

Magnificent Butcher - badly squeezed resulting in distortion - http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare/butcher.htm

Police Story 2 - 2.35:1 image cropped to around 1.90:1 then further cropped and squeezed to a fake 2.27:1 widescreen ratio

Several titles, in particular Warriors Two and Project A have very bad remixes only.

 

[Matthew Brown]

I e-mailed Bey Logan and here is his reply -


"Hi, Matt, thanks for your support, great site! I also have some criticisms on the way Hard Boiled turned out. Please understand that there are often behind the scenes issues that affect the quality of the materials we have access to. I have spoken to Brian and the team, and what we can fix, we will. Thanks, again! - Bey "

 

[Edward Schatz]

Wow, I actually give him credit for admitting there were faults with the release - serious ones IMO. For starters, the stretched out image that mooks Chow Yun-Fat and Tony Leung look fat coupled with the dubtitles. I could have lived with a transfer that was not as great as the HK Video one but the subtitles coupled with the stretched/cropped image did me in. Thanks for the info. Matthew.

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Um, what? This is what happens in subtitles, too -- pop culture references are changed, names and slang are altered from literal translation so that they "make sense" to an audience familiar only with english, and the beats of dialogue are edited and altered to make reading possible without having to keep one's eyes off the screen for an extended period of time. I had an excellent and strange time watching City of God with someone who understood Brazilian Portuguese -- illuminating. For instance, the main character is called Rocket in English, which is a halfway literal translation of his name, but his name in Portuguese is also an insult used in soccer that means something like "he who looks down at his feet", which makes perfect sense in the context of the film and at the same time has no english equivalent.

Just because a script is done for dubbing, it is not by necessity inferior (even if it is in this case).

Criterion's LaserDisc subtitles were a direct, verbatim transcript of the badly dubbed Fox/Lorber VHS tape that was available at the same time, by the way -- I bought a Pony Canyon LD with far better subs (but markedly inferior picture) because the subs on the Criterion irritated me so much. Were the subs the same on the Criterion DVD?

 

[IanD]

I think on a DVD accuracy must come first. Remember the La Haine release where the character Asterix was renamed Snoopy?

 

[Matthew Brown]

I just got this yesterday. I should have a review by Sunday.

Since I am failry eager to get the review done, I probaby won't listen to the full commentary and see all the extras and concentrate on the actual film presentation. Those are nice to haves but are really meaningless unless the actual movie is presented properly.

I'm pretty fair and let people decide for themselves if they want to get something. Some of the forums where I have seen this reviewed have people going crazy with what they think the image looks like judging from a few screenshots.

I'll get some screen shots and proably compare them most to the more recently remastered Mei Ah release since that is anamorphic as well.

 

[LorenzoL]

Looking forward to your review Matthew.

 

[Anthony Thorne]

HARD BOILED is one of my ten favourite films from the 90's and is in no way 'crappy'. The Asian DVD Guide thread linked plus related comments reviewing all the various versions have led me to order the French DVD, which evidently has the best transfer available anywhere but no English subs (though I suspect an enterprising person with access to the accurately dubbed UK or Asian releases can construct a way around that problem). I find it telling that Dragon Dynasty, ostensibly with the money and clout of Weinstein and HK film fan Tarantino hovering in the background, still takes shoddy shortcuts regarding translation and print quality in a likely attempt to save their stockholders some quick bucks, whilst smaller companies like Blue Underground go to pains to attain the best possible AV quality and to obtain accurate subtitles for their own licensed releases. If the key people at Dragon Dynasty had seriously given a shit we could have had the best possible HARD BOILED release ever - they could have accessed the print used on the French DVD, possibly licensed the longer doco exclusive to that release, and taken care with accurate subs, and then they would have received the benefits of strong sales based on positive fan feedback. Now across several different forums I see threads with previously interested fans disappointedly shrugging and deciding to skip this release based on the various defects listed. A real shame, but if Dragon Dynasty seriously didn't want fans like myself and others to spend money on their half-assed release then it's mission accomplished for them.

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Anthony, The Criterion Collection found it impossible to get a good print of both Hard Boiled and The Killer. If The Criterion Collection has trouble, who else stands a chance?

 

[Edward Schatz]

What's your source on that? I am not suggesting you are wrong. Rather, you are probably right but I just want to see backing evidence. Criterion Collection used LD transfers up until the 30s or 40s in their catalogue? Correct me someone if I am mistaken. The 1-10 and teens were LD transfers as far as I know.

 

[Lee-c]

If I'm not mistaken, Criterion had John Woo personally go over the English subtitles for their releases of both The Killer and Hard Boiled (or maybe on The Killer only), so that he could approve the translations, make sure the characters' names were right in English, etc. Why in the world couldn't whoever was in charge of this new DVD set do the same thing??? Then you'd have an accurate translation that carries over into the English quite well.

I'm shocked that they would not only make little to no effort on getting a quality translation, but then have the picture stretched so that it distorts the people in the movie and makes them look wider than normal. That is totally unacceptable. And this is supposed to be the "Ultimate Edition" of Hard Boiled on DVD?? You've got to be kidding me...

Put some real time and effort into correcting these very serious flaws and then it can be a good DVD set. Please get John Woo to go over the English subtitles himself, then you know it will be right. Or just use the one from the Criterion set, since it's already been approved by John Woo. And please correct the video transfer so that there is no stretching or other distortion (either vertically or horizontally) of the picture in the movie. And while you're at it, double check the colors, preferably with John Woo overseeing, to make sure they are as accurate as possible. You know, if you do these things right just *one* time, you'll never have to do it again. You can use the same high quality video transfer and English subtitles for DVD, high definition DVD's, etc.

I will say that I'm very happy to see that the original Cantonese mono soundtrack has been included in this set. That's very important, as it has the correct unaltered music (score) and such that Woo intended the film to be watched with. Please keep the original Cantonese mono soundtrack in place for the new pressing of this movie DVD that corrects the flaws pointed out in the various reviews. Thanks.

 

[Anthony Thorne]

HK Legends released a print of THE KILLER in the UK much superior to the Criterion edition (probably not too hard as I believe Edward is correct in saying that the original Criterion DVD was an LD port), and I understand there's been a European edition since then ever so slightly improved beyond that. A Japanese LD of HARD BOILED was around circa the same time as the Criterion LD that had much better picture quality, better color and skin tones etc. than Criterion's release, though again no English subtitles. Since then, the French DVD of HARD BOILED shows fairly clearly that very nice source materials exist. Actually, to be precise about it, the impression I get is that the source materials for the Dragon Dynasty edition weren't in especially bad shape, but the transfer taken from them is problematic. I also have every suspicion that if Criterion had hypothetically been given the chance to redo HARD BOILED as a double-dipped DVD, they wouldn't find it too hard to present a nicer looking version than their original disc. The goofs on the Dragon Dynasty disc were avoidable, the proof for me being that at least a couple of other companies have released the movie in other countries and managed to avoid them. I gather that Christoph Gans was responsible for much of the quality control that led to the apparently excellent French edition. How hard would it have been to get the French print, do a new progressive NTSC transfer of it and properly subtitle the movie? Many Asian cult film fans in english-speaking territories are very picky about issues such as proper subtitle translation (I'm thinking of the GHOST IN THE SHELL: INNOCENCE debacle) and there's really no excuse not to get these things done right. This was a release I was looking forward to, and I'm disappointed that yet another Region 1 edition of the movie turns out to have serious flaws.

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Really, it's not that good. The Criterion LD, flaws and all, is the best LD I ever owned of Hard Boiled in terms of picture quality (and I owned a bunch, and kept two) -- but the subtitles are really terrible. But it sounds to me like this release has the same subs as the Criterion and that they are Woo's preferred subs.

Anyone want to compare? Find some particularly bad dialogue and I'll compare it to the Criterion LD.

 

[Edward Schatz]

The consensus, just on viewing the transfers, is that Dragon Dynasty got their print/transfer from Tartan in the UK. Though the Dragon Dynasty transfer is noticeably worse and has the unusual stretched image. The best edition I own, as usual sans English subs, is the French HKVideo edition. It's a beautiful print. As with any PAL release, it suffers from the PAL speed-up and chipmunk voices.

 

[Lee-c]

Well, I know, for example, that John Woo corrected Chow Yun-fat's name in The Killer from Criterion to be "John" in the English subtitles, instead of "Jeff" or "Jeffrey", as it is on the other U.S. release of the movie on DVD. I'm not sure if he was given the time to go every single word of the English translation. But if he had been asked by Dragon Dynasty to watch the film and adjust any and all words in the English subtitle translation that he thought were not conveying the accurate intended meaning into English, then I'm sure he would have been happy to. Why wasn't he asked to do that? This is supposed to be the "Ultimate Edition" of Hard Boiled, after all.

If Ridley Scott can pour the huge amount of effort he has into the restoration and new transfer of Blade Runner, and on top of that restoration, working on a new cut of the movie even, then something that takes far less time and effort could be easily arranged by Dragon Dynasty with John Woo for this new release of Hard Boiled. Namely, John Woo going over the English subtitles with a fine tooth comb and making any necessary corrections, and also overseeing and approving the video transfer, so it's done correctly.

But the really inexcusable part of this DVD set is to have a poor video transfer, which apparently is not only cropped, instead of being in the proper original aspect ratio, but also stretched so that the image itself is distorted. Having a stretched (or compressed/squished, for that matter) image is simply not acceptable for the video transfer.

And frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about this stuff about the owners of the film (presumably in Hong Kong) not sending out their really good prints of the movie (whether it be Hard Boiled, or The Killer) for new DVD transfers to be taken from. Why doesn't someone just stuff an envelope full of money in the owner's pocket, pay him off, and get him to agree to hand over a great print to do the restoration/transfer from? Then we wouldn't have to be bothered with this nonsense ever again.

 

[Lee-c]

If this French HKVideo edition DVD looks so great, then why didn't they just pay to use that same print of the film and then do a proper (not cropped, not stretched/distorted, etc.) NTSC transfer from that?? This makes no sense at all.

 

[Edward Schatz]

Ask Brian White. He is infamous on the Asian DVD boards. Well known for cropping and pinkifying transfers. He was brought from HK Legends to Dragon Dynasty and enlisted the help of self proclaimed "expert" Bey Logan - who is frequently contradicted by the film makers themselves on commentaries on other discs. Per The Killer from HK Legends, it is indeed the best version out there. The sad fact is that it's cropped (typical) to about 1.78:1 from 1.85:1 and lacks a mono track.

 

[Matthew Brown]

I am starting to write my review for my site now but it really kills me to do it.

First off, if not for the stretching of the image, the the print itself is beautiful. None of the print damage and scratches that are on most versions (Region 1). There is an occasional shaky frame but color wise, it's great.

The image IS stretched. It's slight but noticable. Most people wouldn't even notice unless they are doing direct comparisons with other versions. That doesn't make it right. I notice as well as many others.

These are dubtitles, yes. After seeing this in the theaters a couple of weeks ago, I can honestly say that these dubtitles may not be the strict translation of what is being said but they do carry the same "flavor" and are close to the same meaning except during a couple of scenes.

I do encourage everybody to write/contact Dragon Dynasty and let them know this really isn't acceptable. These companies are too busy making DVDs (whatever quality that may be) to read internet forums. Complaining here will not change the way companies make releases. While I highly doubt a recall, it might not be to much to hope for of a later "repressing" with a fixed image.

I woudn't be so hard on Bey Logan. He may be off sometimes but when you can't get somebody who worked on the film, I'd rather him than Rick Meyers. He is also not very happy with the the way this was released.

The may have rushed this out to coincide with the video game for all I know.

I will find a contact address/e-mail address and post it. It's the only way to get something done about it.

Matt

 

[Matthew Brown]

Comparison shots:

Critirion

Winstar


Dragon Dynasty