NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread (1 Viewer)

[Seth Paxton]

Lew, many people said the 2nd suspension was unwarranted because Ron quickly turned around in a behavior that acknowledged the rules and showed a willingness to comply by his own choice. So that's only 1, and it was for flagrant foul points, not for some specific altercation.

And even with that Ron spent last year also battling his flagrant foul rep, and not all of his hard fouls were considered flagrant by all involved, some were seen as generated by his rep.

So the point then becomes that once a guy has a rep, OTHER PEOPLE can then continue to generate that rep by skewing how they handle them in the future.
"hey, I asked for coke and you gave me sprite"
"oh, what you want to fight, SECURITY"
"no I just"
(security grabs him, he resists)
On the news "Artest goes nuts at movie theater over Sprite incident".

Those sort of things happen to people all the time, and it isn't fair.

Really Marc Stein? Kicking a guy with your spikes is the same as grabbing, even punching a person? Not in my book, but if you'd like to come over for a game of you swing at me, I kick you with my spikes then okay. We'll see how long that game goes.


Show me something similar that resulted in such a harsh penalty. Forget what Jackson did or the fans did after that, that's their business, their fines/suspensions/arrests and their choices. Ron should only be penalized for his choices. The history of players who have made his choice strongly suggests that he was severly overpenalized.


I don't believe any player has ever been suspended or maybe even fined for physically interacting with a fan who came onto the field/court.


You simply cannot hold Artest accountable for a fan that chose to throw a chair or come on the court or hit other Pacers in the back of the head. At best you can say he got things going, but if you do can't we just follow that logic backward and say that it was all only the cup-throwers fault, or farther back and say it was all Ben Wallace's fault?

I thought people said that the actions of others doesn't remove our own responsibility, at least that's the application to Artest. Fine. Apply it to the rest of the incident then too. Artest went after a guy, 10 games, 15 to set the higher tone. Fans on court, no penalty. That's the precedent that was set for those actions.

Then we turn to the next action. Fan punches player, Jackson punches fan, whatever, with each being punished only according to their OWN CHOICES, not the total result. In the end the entire incident should be acounted for.

But it is unfair and ridiculous to hold Artest accountable for how ugly FANS CHOSE TO GET, or his teammates. Artest going into the stands does NOT JUSTIFY Jackson punching a beer thrower or any of the other terrible things we see. It justifies that guy defending himself, and people pulling him out of there. That's it. Everything else is the resposibility of the people who made those other choices.

In other words, if we are all at an HTF meet and I get chippy with Scott and punch him, that doesn't make it okay for Lew to punch Casey and then Haggai to dump beer on both of them, etc. And just because they chose to act that way doesn't make it my responsibility. I am only responsible for my own actions. It is not reasonable to think that Ron going after a cup-tossing fan, even the wrong one, gives any other fan or player the right to fight. But it was those other choices that took this from a troubling incident into the realm of horrific.

What Maxwell did was the same thing, what DET fans did was not the same as what PORT fans did. What Maxwell's teammates did was not the same as what Jackson did, and eventually O'Neal to a lesser degree. That's why these things are different, and that's where the additional punishment should be levied.

In Portland fans weren't arrested, other players weren't suspended for fighting, no one had to look at video tape to identify fans getting out of control. THAT'S HOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT, period. There is no debating it. What Ron did was most physically similar to what Maxwell did. That's the end of the story for him.

Hell, if a brawl were to break out in Indy could we all say "well, it was all Ron's fault, up his fine and suspension. I know he wasn't in the building, but its still his fault and he should be punished." Does Ron get fined by the NCAA for the Clemson-SC riot spurred on by footage of FRI night? No, that's just silly.


For the record, Wallace only deserved 2 games for a hard hands to the face but not punch thing. That's what he did, that doesn't justify Artest going into the stands or fans behavior.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Anyway, I'm done in this thread with Artest talk, apart from his potential return to the team and his affect on the Pacers ability to win (with or without him). If you are sick of hearing my side of this issue, you will be safe in this thread. I know that makes many of you happy.


On to how this shapes the East. I have to say that I am even more impressed with Carlisle in all of this. At the press conference he was like bedrock, solid and even-keeled. He just isn't prone to emotional reactions (which is why I think he has had a good effect on both Artest and Tinsley, and hopefully will on Jackson once he gets more time with him).

Even FRI night when Larry Brown was running pretty emotional, Rick seemed to take it all in stride despite being on the fan-hatred side of it.

And that encourages me, how he and Bird responded at the press conference. AJ will be coming back soon, as will Miller, in a few more weeks I think Foster returns. Tinsley is getting better (not sure if that hand injury was FRI night or what) and hopefully Pollard will be able to at least go 50% of the time.

In the meantime Fred Jones looks as good as he has, and as good as I said he was last year. Stats just don't show this stuff, you have to see a guy's speed, physicality, skills, esp. in person to get it fully I think.

Jones on SAT night ended up being the PG in the 4th because Eddie Gill was just overmatched. That caused problems because Jones was also being asked to be the go-to scorer and had to dribble and PnR against endless double teams. Gill was horrible at it.

Croshere had a down game, so hopefully he will be better offensively. Honestly, he just looked tired by the 4th. All these guys were seeing a lot more minutes than normal.

David Harrison looks to be a pretty solid draft pick after all. His skill set inside is actually strong for a rookie. His main issue is just not seeing the game at the NBA speed. He got burned on fakes, he fails to set good picks or play the PnR good on defense.

However, he can get his points inside, blocks shots pretty well, and can rebound fairly well. His heavy playing time should really help him I think since his needs are mostly on-court learning things.

James Jones has a nice bench-guy type game, good with reboudning, occassional nice outside touch, he can help your team as the 8th guy. But as a starter, he's still a weak point.

John Edwards - should not be on an NBA roster, period.


So if the Pacers can go with -
Tinsley
F Jones
J Jones
Croshere
Pollard

Harrison, Gill for a few weeks they could still get out of it with a 2-8, 3-7 run. Then you put Miller and AJ in the mix and get Fred Jones at the SF spot to replace Artest and you are starting to look okay. Add Foster to the mix and you really aren't that far off full strength and can probably expect a 5-5, 6-4 run.

That's enough to keep them in the playoff hunt for another 15 games until JO returns, fully rested I might add, and then Jackson a few games later. Heck, by then even Bender will be back.

So if you ask me about a team that has a fully rested O'Neal and Jackson, and a healthy Miller, AJ and Foster, I still consider them the favorites.

Fred Jones is a similar player to Artest, fast and physical as a defender, able to hit the 3 (better actually), and able to create some additional offense.

I'm sure Scott and Brandon don't agree, but then the Pacers just handily beat the Pistons without Miller, Foster, Bender, Pollard or AJ (anthony johnson). I'll trade them for Artest and feel pretty good about it.

 

[Seth Paxton]

The rest of the NBA:

Detroit does seem to be starting slow, and losing Wallace for a few games doesn't help. But then last year they started "slow" too. Brown has been unable to be as much a part of things. Its a long season. If Indy can overcome their setback (which I think they can), then DET can get back to 60 win form as well.


Grant Hill - I have to say that even though he scored some points on Indy, I wasn't that impressed. He didn't look like old Grant Hill, he looked like a solid team guy that can give you 10-12 a night and 5 rebounds. Hey, that's still great for the Magic, but Hill is not "back" in the fullest sense. Most of his night was spent burning James Jones SAT night, which is just not that impressive.

Francis - WTF is going on with his game though? He damn near cost ORL the game. He was just awful. Magic were lucky to have Hedo Turk and Hill to turn to.


I don't know that any Atlantic team is very good right now. DET, CLE, MIA, ORL are playoff teams. Other than that there isn't a lot to make Indy fans sweat to be honest. Hey, at least CLE and ORL look improved.


Meanwhile, I know Casey and other Lakers fans think everything is just fine, but as I said before the season, LA has some real concerns when it comes to making the playoffs out West.

SEA really looks to have things dialed with with Lewis and Allen, that not just a fluke anymore. They can win 50. Minny we know. SA we know, Dallas we know. SAC we know.

So you have
MIN
SA
SAC
DAL
SEA

Add to that a PHX team that can explain the improvement with Nash who is the real deal, the piece that helps Marion and Stoud. play better. Funny how the super high scoring offense followed Nash right over to PHX, isn't it.

And then UTH has every reason to be considered at least as strong as last year, you can point to talent on their roster.

Now you have 1 other spot, and you have to think that both Memphis and Denver are young enough and have kept the roster together enough to be as good as last year too.

LA makes the 10th team in the hunt, and there is very little there to suggest to me that they are really in better shape than Denver. Heck, I didn't even though in Houston because I'm not sold on McGrady really making a great team player. He scores a lot and has talent, but he's yet to really show the abilty to raise a team up. I definitely don't think Yao is ready to do that.



Now can you send a couple of these teams over to the East so we can at least put 6-7 good teams into the playoffs instead of 3-4?

 

[Haggai]

Come on, Seth, that would never happen. I don't like beer. Well, maybe if Ron Epstein slipped me a beer in that situation, I might have to think about it...

 

[Andy Sheets]

I've been really impressed with McGrady's team play so far. I never got to see him much in Orlando but in the games he's played so far, he's been doing things the Rockets always wanted out of Francis but never got because the guy was such a bad passer and decisionmaker. I'm worried about him being fragile physically, but that's always been a concern with him.

OTOH, I don't like Van Gundy's approach to the team. It's painful to watch the Rockets play because even when they win it's like they're yanking teeth out there. He's got them playing like the Cavs used to under Fratello and while that team had to play that way because they generally lacked talent, the Rockets, even with the holes in their roster, shouldn't be playing like that.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Seth believe me, when I think of all the words I can use to describe the Lakers right now, fine is not high on the list.

Just because I think they'll still make the playoffs, still not sold on the Kings myself, does not mean that right now I am happy with the way things are going, especially right now.

I hated the Shaq trade, and still do. If the Lakers are stinking up the joint then that's what they deserve.

Fine, is not my outlook. I think that they can and will improve, but I'm not planning to do a happy Laker dance anytime soon.

I guess I have one final Artest question for Seth and the others, but it doesn't relate so much to that other thread at all so much as it is NBA analysis.

Will Artest even be back with Indiana next season, or might they just trade him? If they trade him, what do you think they will get in return?

As I said, Indiana is helped by being in the East, I think how many wins they get during this run will depend in large part on who they play. Will they miss their big 3 on a brutal Western swing? Do they play Atlanta, Washington, and Charlotte 18 times in the next thirty games, I have a copy of the NBA schedule but I haven't gotten around to looking at what the next 25-30 games are like for the Pacers.

Is anyone surprised at how bad New Orleans is, or how slowly Memphis started?

 

[Lew Crippen]

If I were the GM, I’d keep him, if I were convinced that his presence would not damage the rest of the team. I don’t think that any trade would get equal value, and I’d have to believe that this latest incident would cause him to get needed help.

 

[Jan H]

Well, if 'just fine' means that we think the Lakers are going to win the championship, then things are not fine. But that being said, I like the direction the team is headed. The Lakers play hard every night, show some surprising athleticism and the occasional ability to lock teams down on defense. The brand of ball they're playing is infinitely more attractive than the crapola of last year. Not a bad rebuilding job by Kupchak and company, though honestly we're a couple of years away from contending again. Still, we're much farther ahead of the game than the Bulls, Celtics and Pistons are/were when their dynasties imploded.

 

[Seth Paxton]

I meant "just fine" in terms of "still make the playoffs". Heck, I saw some preseason rankings that had them as 3-4 in the West!!!

Anyway, just how bad is this going to be for Kobe? I mean Shaq has Wade, and that's it. Kobe has more than Wade around him. East is weak, fine, but we will also be able to compare records vs the same conference and opponents.

And if Shaq has the better of him in that regard, will head to head wins for LA make up for it?


All the more reason to dump it on someone. Of course I left out the part where Ron-P goes totoally mental at seeing a premium lager wasted like that and beats the holy hell out of you.



Andy, I haven't really been able to see them play much (HOU), so I can't comment on how it is really working. I can believe your points in all cases though. As I said, Francis was a total meltdown in Indy the other night, so TMac has to be better than that. I've seen him (Francis) play much better, but I wonder if he isn't another one of those stars who just suddenly fades into average after a few seasons (think Kenny Anderson).



I know I've written tons about the Artest thing, but its going to die down. Unlike many people I've heard from after FRI night, I still happen to like the NBA and the product. In fact I think we've seen some pretty solid play this year. Scoring in general seems to be up though I haven't compared stats yet.

I'm hoping to catch a lot more of other teams in the next month or so. I think there is plenty of other things for us to discuss about the NBA.

 

[Jan H]

I agree with Seth, Artest's punishment was too severe. Who among us would not have been looking to open up a can of whoopass on somebody if it had happened to us? Clearly, his prior transgressions and reputation played a huge role in Stern's punishment. What happened on Friday night was a garden-variety court confrontation that turned into a fiasco because of some drunk dumbass fans, plain and simple.

Anyway, on to the league. I'd unequivocally state that the Lakers will make the playoffs were it not for the surprisingly spectacular play of Seattle and Phoenix. Whether or not these teams can remain consistent throughout the year will largely determine whether the Lakers are playoff or lottery-bound.

Miami is pretty much what I figured they'd be. Beating up on the dregs of the East to the tune of 50+ wins, and getting beaten consistently against the West. They'll go out in the Conference Finals.

If Indy can stay afloat until until JO and Jackson return, I think they can still come out of the East even without Artest.

 

[Chris Farmer]

Miami makes the conference finals by default. They won't have a better record the either Detroit (or, assuming they get back on their feet), Indiana. They get O'Neal and Jackson back in January or February, and that's more then enough time for them to get things together. Hell, historically the Spurs are around .550 then before they make their annual run to compete for the best record in the league, and they play in the West. I still think Indy gets the four spot in the East, which means they face Detroit in the conf. semis. However, even if they drop below Cleveland to number 5, they still take out Cleveland in round one, then face off against Detroit in the semis. And frankly, there's no way they drop below five, after the top three, the east just plain flat isn't good enough. So in the end, Miami takes out a creampuff in round one, the creampuff winner of the Atlantic division in round two, and then makes the conf. finals. They're in by default, unless somehow Indy slips below five but not all the way to eight. And if that happens, they've been playing so poorly that Miami beats them anyway, because that means they still suck it up after O'Neal and Jackson return.

And I also agree that the penalties were too severe. Had this been a normal game where Artest went off after a beer was thrown at him, then things would be acceptable, but this wasn't a normal game. Things were already so highly charged that all it took was one thing to make things blow up. Striking a match in your kitchen isn't the same as striking a match at a gasoline station. Normally that beer, while only a match, would have been ignored, but there was too much stuff in the air. that old cliché about the straw that broke the camel's back exists for a reason.

 

[Andy Sheets]

I wonder if part of it is to send a message regarding the league's image. While I think the NBA generally gets a bum rap, at least in comparison to other pro sports leagues, it can't be denied that *a lot* of casual fans regard it as a league of thugs and criminals and an incident like this only reinforces that, so giving out such severe penalties for this incident might be David Stern's way of saying to the media that he's going to be less tolerant of player misconduct from now on in hopes of repairing the league's once-wholesome image.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Well Jan, if my boss had repeatedly said that going into the stands regardless of provocation would not be tolerated and would result in suspension, I don’t think I would have—and I expect that not many others would have either.

It is true that Artest was provoked. It is also true that all pro athletes (at least NBA, NFL, MLB) are cautioned over and over to never go into the stands.

I think that mature adults would (given the cautions mentioned) in fact not react in that manner.

 

[Jan H]

I understand that argument, Lew, but in that particular situation I don't know of anyone who would've kept his cool. What happened to Artest went beyond mere provocation, IMO.

But lest I'm sounding like what Artest did was somehow justifiable, I don't mean to. It was wrong and he is being punished for it. I merely am suggesting that what he did was not inexplicable.

 

[Jan H]

Hypothetical question: What would the punishment have been if it had been David Robinson who 'snapped' and went into the stands throwing blows because a fan threw a beer on him? Forgive the heresy, Spurs fans, I'm just trying to make a point about the fundamentally hypocritical way in which David Stern runs the NBA.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Jan, IMO if you substitute out Artest, and substitute in anyone else the suspention is the same.

I Said this in the other thread, but Stern had no choice but to be tough. Maybe the suspention was too harsh, but from his point of view it is better that the public find him to be too harsh on the player than not harsh enough. If they don't find his punishment to be all that meaningful then they might decide not to go to NBA games, and since the league is ticket driven that's when it starts to hurt.

If the player is different but the result of his actions is still the same thing that went down on Friday then the suspention should be the same thing. I don't get questions like what if it were Grant Hill or David Robinson because nobody will ever know the answer. It was Ron Artest and Ron Artest was punishment.

The biggest problem with those questions is assuming that Robinson or Hill would've acted the same way as Artest when that itself can not be known.

My first point in this whole thing was that Artest is hardly the first person in sports to have a beer thrown at him, and a large number of those who have did not react in the same way he can. If other guys can handle it then why shouldn't we expect that he should as well. As Lew said, the players know they are not to enter the stands for any reason, and you know that the rule is on the book for a reason.

Fans should never throw beers on players.
Fans throwing beers on players does not give the players the right or the excuse to dole out vengeance.
I'm going to twist the old saying 2 wrongs don't make a right in to something a little different. 1 wrong does not make another wrong right.

So, ultimately if Stern is too harsh which IMO he wasn't, he had to be. It is a lot harder for people to claim he was too light on Artest, since he's out for the rest of the season but it would've been a whole lot easier for that sentiment to take hold if he had only gotten 35 games.

Is that necessarily fair, maybe maybe not but Stern has to consider how the public is going to view his league after that and how they react to the punishment is a function of that, which is why I say regardless of the player the punishment would've been the same.

I can almost see Stern standing there and saying: "years of being a statesmen for the league are not enough to wipe out the reprehensable actions of the weekend." something to that effect if it had been someone else. Heck Jermaine is considered to be one of the NBA's good guys and is also viewed as the Pacer that was the least in the wrong of the 3 and he only got 5 games less than Jackson.

One may disagree but in my view, someone with a good record would've gotten the same fait. Of course, I don't think that David Robinson would've charged in to the stands looking for a fight.

Now can the discussion of Artest and all this stuff be confined to that thread, I have heard that there are other things happening in the NBA.

How about Charlotte beating Detroit last night? I believe this is the first time a first year expansion team has defeated a defending champion in over 33 years. Yeah Wallace was out, but Charlotte has been playing with teams lately.

 

[Jan H]

Ok, I'll respond in the other thread.

I'm really shocked by the Sonics. Anybody think they're for real?

A couple of other things I've noticed thus far:

This year's 2003-04 Lakers Dysfunction Award so far has to go to the T-Wolves. To me, they have the most talent in the league but are sniping and whining about extra-basketball issues, to the detriment of the team.

The Mavs have a pretty solid, well-balanced team this year, Dirk's injury nothwithstanding.

The Rockets are the Heat of the West: Great big man and guard, little else.

The Spurs are the same force they've always been and with Barry, they're stronger than last year.

The Jazz are the model for how to rebuild a team (Are you reading this, Jerry Krause?)

The Grizz are finding out they can't sneak up on anybody anymore.

The Suns, Nuggets and Sonics I'm not sold on. They'll have to show me a little more.

And the less said about the East, the better.

 

[Seth Paxton]

How about if I substitute in Vernon Maxwell? It's not just hypothetical to wonder what Stern would do then, we have it on record. To me, the buck stops there. Double or Triple for a repeat offender and you still have a penalty worse than Washington got for his vicious punch on a fellow player, and send the message that you are now 3 times tougher on the issue than you were 9 years ago.

But I've made that case in the other thread.


For this thread, let's just go (at least for now) that nothing will change from Stern.

Remember that its not just the Pacers hanging on till guys get back. Yes these guys were contributing major points but part of the reason was that other guys were out. Foster, AJ, and Miller all bite into the playing, rebounding and scoring of those guys when they return. Reggie was possibly going to replace Jackson in the starting lineup anyway.

This is a team that was playing 5-6 short every night already, and was still 7-2 at the time. So they are really only riding out 10 games roughly until they get back to a situation that is similar to what got them to 7-2.

Remember, during the first 9 injury plagued games Artest had already not played twice and O'Neal missed one game, plus came off the bench twice while recovering from injury.

That's right, this team has only had those 3 players on court at the same time in 6 of their 11 games.

Miller is older, but there is little reason to expect him to be sniffing Jackson's butt yet when it comes to scoring. Foster typically isn't the scoring option but he is a very strong player that goes overlooked due to stats. I sincerely think he's just this close to being Ben Wallace quality (defensive, rebouding, only scoring when needed). AJ is not Tinsley, but he is a lot stronger than Eddie Gill. I've seen them both play in person several times and Gill just isn't strong enough with the ball to be a regular in the NBA at this point.

So getting those 3 back after maybe 7-9 more games makes a nice impact, definitely gives you a big talent bump in some areas.

Then Bender should be back as the suspensions run out, and minus Ron the team is 100%. Of course other things, other injuries, might pop up before then. Pollard will be on and off the whole time, for example.



OTHER TEAMS

Sonics - yep, I think they are for real. Any time a team suddenly gets good I look at the talent behind it. In this case its far less surprising than Memphis was last year. Lewis has been maturing, Ray Ray just has one of the best all-around games in the NBA and is a terrific shooter (which the Olympics showed is lacking in the NBA).

PHX - Nash comes in, scoring goes to Dallas levels. I believe. I saw it with Mark Jax in Indy. A PG who can create situations, not just his own shots, can really amplify the other scoring talent on your team.

Jazz - wow Jan, you sure jinxed them with the Krause comment. I guess someone was reading it since the Bulls just got their first win of the year over UTH.

DET - okay, talk about not taking advantage of a situation, 2 losses in a row and a near miss the first night against CHA (at home no less).


Jan - I think you are giving HOU too much credit. I think Wade-Shaq are much stronger than TMac-Yao. Health is an issue, but other than that I think the East has 3 power teams this year, w/ CLE and ORL asking for some attention too. Once again there will be a couple of crap teams filling out the post season, but the top tier teams can still run with the best of the West (at least I think DET still can ).

 

[Jan H]

Yeah, Houston's not as good as Miami, but it's the same basic formula. T-Mac and Yao really haven't shown they mesh well together yet, but Shaq and Wade are already gettin along famously. Miami's lack of depth, however, is already being exposed by the big teams out west.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I’ll follow Jan’s lead and make my Artest and co comments in the other thread.

In some ways the Mavs are actually better than last year—but they have some real growing up to do at point. Their assist total must be close to last so far this year. Either they break down the other teams defense one-on-one, put back a rebound, force a turnover (way up from last year) or don’t score. They sure miss Nash in this department.
Anyone else think that since Carmello Anthony was exposed against Minnessota in last year’s playoffs, he has not been the same.

I’ve not seen him play that much so far, but what I have seen does not look good. And scanning the box scores does not seem to suggest that he is playing at last year’s levels.