NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread (1 Viewer)

[Patrick Sun]

The ESPN crew of Stephen A, Greg Anthony, John Saunders, and the other guy had a good laugh about Ron Artest's requested leave of absence to contend with his upcoming CD release.

 

[Haggai]

The other guy = Tim Legler, 1996 All-Star 3-point shootout winner.

 

[Michael D. Bunting]

RON ARTEST HAS TO GO

And I'm A Pacers fan...

How he's still on this team led by Carlisle and Bird is beyond me. He cost the Pacers a trip to the NBA Finals last year (remember the bone-headed head-butt) and he's already causing this team troubles this season.

Just 5 games in he wants a break?????? To release a rap album???? Who does he think he is??? Shaq????

Don't forget he also missed flights/meetings/practices that were all covered up by the team during the playoffs last season as well...this guy will never, ever get his act together.

Trade him now Bird...hell, release his ass...better off (in the long run) without him.

My favorite Artest quote:

``I was doing a lot,'' Artest said. ``I was running around a lot and doing a whole bunch of stuff and I've also been working out, so I think I wore myself down physically, I wore myself down mentally. I was ready to take some time off, at least like a month off, but two games is enough.''

 

[Shane Martin]

The Pacers even took this in stride by losing to the Clippers by nearly 50 points last night
They looked awful good the other night.

Speaking of awful good, the Jazz are playing outstanding basketball.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

The Ron Artest situation sounds like one of the those Budwesier "Leon" commercials. Amazing. If the Pacers want to get rid of him now, his trade value just went in the tank.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

I love the NBA, only in the NBA could this be a valid reason for getting time off.

If an NFL player tried this his offensive line or defensive line would probably commense to kicking his ass.

Between this, and Sprewell lamenting that 14 million just isn't enough to feed his family (wonder what they're eating...money?) no wonder the NBA is developing an immage problem.

 

[Michael D. Bunting]

More from Mr. Artest

Artest: Accept me as I am

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...arc&id=1921048



I still say trade him. He's now making comments that totally go against other comments he has already made.

One of my favorite remarks from the espn article linked above is when he is talking about how Jermaine O'Neal should have been the league MVP last season. A couple months before the season started he remarked that HE HIMSELF should not only have been the team MVP, but should have probably won the league MVP as well?

Oh well, I give up. I don't think they can win an NBA Championship with him...I'd feel better about the Pacers chances without him.

LATEST UPDATE: I just watched a new interview with Artest on ESPN. Artest was holding up his newly produced "Allure" CD in view of the camera during the ENTIRE interview, which appeared to be +5 minutes in length. This is almost comical...

 

[Shane Martin]

Michael,
The problem is given his attitude, who is going to take him? Granted it's a risk for the other team but I'm not sure there is a team out there who is willing.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Send him to the Lakers. He'll fit in nicely with Kobe.

 

[RobertR]

Another gem was when he said he doesn't know the meaning of the word "integrity".

What a sad comment.

 

[Seth Paxton]

First, on the other Artest thing...so what. Talk about a nothing incident. Here's why - did he bad mouth his coach, make some stand against the punishment, anything at all? No. Whatever he said to earn 2 PAID games off (not suspension) he took it very matter of factly. Carlisle did too. Point made, point taken, move on.

Teenagers say and think some pretty goofy things, enough to get grounded, etc, but you don't kick them out of the house for that. If they accept their punishment, show regret over the incident, at least as a misunderstanding that perhaps they didn't express correctly, then they are still in line with the family and generally speaking "good kids".

Ron doesn't demand more money, he didn't even demand time off, at least publically. If it was truly offensive I don't doubt that Carlisle would have brought the wood down on him. Rick takes things in stride and keeps them in perspective, and his reaction says this was a minor incident at worst.

Artest went from a constantly in trouble player 2 years ago to a guy with almost no problems last year. Going into this incident he had been the one starter who had really been bringing it without sitting down due to minor injuries (he had played through some small stuff because so many others were hurt). That's NOT a troublemaker. He may be confused on some things, he certainly was goofy in the interviews after the fact, but he said his coach was in charge and that he completely respected him REPEATEDLY. End of story.

Why trade an all-star, gutsy team guy who is so strong on both ends of the court for that? Save it for when he chokes his coach or demands money, etc. Sorry Michael, but if that's tradeable behavior then more than half the NBA needs to be moved.

I wish more people would realize that this is probably the main point of the whole thing. It's simply funny and silly.

BTW, if "detremental to team integrity" is so clear, why doesn't someone explain what it means to me? Did he get the team involved in a points shaving scandal?


Its as big a non-story as the NBA coming down on Carter for listening to his IPod because it doesn't fit the "dress code". Talk about lame. Instead he has to warm up to whatever same old, some old rap song blaring over the loudspeakers in order to conform in a league full of afros, tattoos, and knee-high socks. Freaking retarded.



Now the fight. A Pacer fan perspective, though tempered I think.

1) Ron gave Ben a shove in the back that was more message than just hard play. It was the old "don't come in here chump, even late in the game" thing that teams like BOTH DETROIT and INDY do. They let the other team know that nothings easy. If you are a Piston fan and don't think a Piston HAS DONE the same thing, then you are in denial.

2) To such a foul a guy SHOULD STAND UP, step to the guy and IN WORDS let him know you don't play that and he'll get the same at some point. Frankly, I feel certain that Artest knew that anyway, but I had no problem with Ben going back over to him.

3) Ben blew up. He shouldn't have put his hands in Ron's face, and if the whole thing ended after that he would probably be getting a suspension for a couple of games. However, Ben isn't the first guy to get fired up over something like that, it's just part of the game, like a batter charging after getting hit with a pitch.


THIS IS WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED. Ron never reacted AT ALL, in fact he laid down on the scorers table even after Ben then threw his towel at him, jumped, yelled, and continued to rant out of control. That's the right thing to do. Ben was worked up and was getting kicked out. Everyone else needed to calm down, and except for Stephen Jackson and maybe a Piston that he was fighting with (hard to tell who he was pissed at, maybe Hunter) that's exactly what they were doing.

4) A dude threw a full beer and cup (I heard bottle but it looked like a cup to me) on Ron FIVE MINUTES LATER. I mean where is the freaking security by this point. When it first started, sure, but after five minutes it would seem like they would have a pretty good idea that tempers were high and they needed to be over there RIGHT BY THE PLAYERS AT LEAST. They weren't, as the tape shows.

The dude that threw the beer - you can see him and his 3 buddies CHEERING FOR A FIGHT as soon as Ben pushes Ron and the players huddle up pushing and shoving. One guy is maniacally pounding his fist into his hand in that "yeah, punch him, kill him" fanatical manner. This is all very clear from a baseline camera looking at Ron and Ben and then the scrum.

So one of those jerks, not satisfied that Artest isn't getting punched and is instead doing THE VERY LEAST OF ANYONE to be involved in the fight, decides to take it in their own hands to dole out the punishment.

These are 4th or 5th row seats. Someone should never be allowed to own those season tickets again, period.

5) Ron shouldn't have gone after the guy, but in his defense he was doing nothing AND in a defenseless position laying down. I wonder if anyone, anywhere would take it much better than Ron did. The fact that he went after THE GUY who threw the beer and not anyone else makes me not feel that bad at all that he did it. In fact the only reason he shouldn't have gone in is because in these situations it doesn't matter if you are right because he has a rep and every candy-ass wimp fan trying to fight him will now sue him instead.

6) Jackson was too fired up and needed to be kicked out along with Ben. He was the one Pacer who was not handling it well.

7) Both the Pacers and Pistons players did a great job of going in and trying to get Ron and Stephen out of there. I commend the Pistons players for their attitude. I respect why they were fired up, as I said, it happens.

8) I hope Pistons fans sitting near some of the troublemakers report them. I can assure you that if someone did that near me I'd pull out my freaking camera and take their picture to help report them, let alone tell on them.

I sit down low and hear some pretty lame crap all the time, and not just in Indy. You get these fired up drunks who don't even understand the game and react just like those 4 jerks were. IMO, trash talking is only good if its about someone's game and is accurate. Things like "nice hair" to Ben Wallace is pretty weak, and things like "f*** you you mother f****** punk" aren't even trash talk and shouldn't be TOLERATED by fans, officials or security.


9) I don't know what passes for security at Auburn Hills, but when fans RUN ONTO THE COURT WITH THEIR FISTS UP TRYING TO PUNCH PLAYERS more than 10 minutes into an incident, someone screwed up. I mean, who watching didn't see trouble breweing before it got that bad? And even worse, despite the fan brawl, security couldn't even keep fans from dumping more beer, bottles, coins, etc on EVERY PACER as they left the building. Not just Ron and Jackson, but a guy like O'Neal who did nothing. It's one freaking exit. 4 cops could stand in the stands there and shut that down with the threat of arrest.

I understand if it happens so quickly, but by the time they had the players leaving the court I think people all the way over in Chicago had heard that something was up. Hell, if it was baseball they could have brought the tarp out and rolled it back up in the time this thing went on.


10) I saw 2 different Pistons fans PUNCH PACER PLAYERS IN THE HEAD FROM BEHIND. Think about that. This was Tinsley and Fred Jones trying to pull their own players away, not even dealing with the fans in question and the guys came up from behind them and just started swinging. That is not acceptable behavior, period. Those 2 dudes and at least the one beer thrower will all be getting a call from the police, ala the NFL snowball game a few years ago. They deserve it.

I hope the players association and the NBA reem the shit out of those fans that really stepped over the line. My wife had a more emotional Pacer fan reaction - they should take away their team. I say that so DET fans know that if you think I sound defensive, you have no idea where the other side of the fence is on this.

There will be plenty of Indy people screaming bloody murder. I do not agree with that. This was some security issues and unfortunately more than just 1 or 2 bad apples, but bad apples none-the-less. Ben and Ron aren't to blame because plenty of crowds have seen fights far worse than this breakout without joining in themselves.



Now, there was one very funny moment in all of this. The dude that started it all after he throws his beer. You could tell he felt safe from repercussions and was even still sort of taunting Ron after he came in the stands with a "yeah, that's right" thing going, pointing and yelling. Then suddenly big old Ron got up on him and his face dropped into shock and fear and he dropped to the floor like the little punk he really was, and then took a couple of good shots before his buddies (same other jerks BTW) started holding Ron down.

But that moment when a guy, typical of our "I'm anonymous so I can act like an asshole" modern world, suddenly realized the spotlight was coming down hard on him was priceless.

I sincerely mean this, even if it were Ben coming into the stands at Conseco, I support this to some degree. It's nice to see assholes get a little bit of what's coming to them.


I'm sure plenty of innocent people got hurt in the middle of it and that's a big reason why Ron should have tried to continue to remain calm, that's why players shouldn't do it. But I wish more of these "fans" would get hauled off because I'm sick of them, including here in Indy.



All of this ruined a very impressive game by Indy, despite not having Reggie, Foster, Bender, Johnson, and Pollard, in DET and with Detroit all back together and in uniform.

And it also ruined Artest's terrific effort to not take the incident anywhere. Seriously, have you ever seen a player get shoved in the face like that and just stand there, then just walk away, and then just lay down and remain there?

To me that is good for any player, let alone a guy like Artest who just 2 years ago probably would have been jumping around like Jackson looking for a fight.



My guess from the league is 2 games for Wallace, 5 for Ron for going into the stands, 7 for Jackson for instigating on the court and also going into the stands just as aggressively as Ron.

I also expect 5-10 arrests to be made of various fans. And if lawsuits break out, I wouldn't be surprised if Auburn Hills themselves end up having to pay some of them for failing to protect the innocent fans and players. After all, if a fan sues because Ron knocked him down trying to get at another fan, won't Jermaine be suing for being attacked by endless flying objects of all sorts?

 

[Brandon_T]

I agree with most of what you said Seth, however, if Ron went after the "right" guy that threw his beer on him, why does the guy he punched still have a beer?




Yeah, Greg Ostertag, but he truly is a pu$$y. I actually wouldn't be scared of that 7 footer.



I am embaressed for the fans of Detroit, and would hope that this is a once in a lifetime event. Fans should let the players work things out on the court and sit on the side and watch. Thats all the ticket gives them the right to do.

While its true that if someone douses me with beer, I will probably have a word or two with them, but it was still only a CUP of beer, not a bottle that could hurt you, a professional athlete cannot go into the stands, Charles Barkley. I think the suspensions you mention Seth are the very minimum that the players would face. I think they are all going to be higher, and Mr. Jackson will be lucky if he doesn't get ten games.

I really enjoy this rivalry between the two teams, but this is not needed. The Pistons need to handle this better, I mean, Indy has owned us in the regular season the last two years, but we all know it doesn't mean a damn thing come playoffs, so take it with a grain guys. You just beat a good Minnesota team, and its only the 2nd game with the whole team, so take it easy, and get it together mentally.

 

[Brandon_T]

Ya know, at first I really thought that guy came on the court looking to fight, but he did lower his hands then Artest laid into him, I have seen that about 5 times now, and don't think of it like I did originally. This is just stupid and ugly.

I am glad the NFL is still on where I can expect violence, and a crappy team. Go Lions

 

[Seth Paxton]

I still haven't. Need to go back to ESPN and watch I guess. No matter how the guy came on court, you can't expect a player to be cool at that point. Players flip out even if its a happy situation, mainly thanks to things like the Seles stabbing and the White Sox (dual) assualts. If you don't have a reason to be out there, then you shouldn't be out there, period.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Okay, I saw both the "wrong guy" tape, which it was and the "fan on the court" tape (well, there are several fans that come onto the court looking for fights.

The one guy does step to Ron but then appears to start to puss out when he realizes Ron is ready to throw down and is hella bigger than him. But by then its too late. Not only does Ron swing at him, but a guy in a suit who was with Ron, either Person or perhaps Mahorn (looks more like Mahorn's suit but Person was with him most of the time) then jumps on the guy and punches. So it wasn't just players.

O'Neal drills the guy just after he gets up, and while its a brutal hit we are talking about seeing a fan fighting your teammates ON THE COURT. As I said, in this era you can't feel safe when a fan comes out to start something.


As for the "wrong guy", it is the wrong guy, but its not really. It was the "4 guys" I described, and in fact its the guy who was pounding his fist that I mentioned earlier. However, when Ron came toward him he was doing the "who me" hands in the pocket chickenshit thing while his buddy was just pointing and talking shit, so naturally Ron thought it was him. My point is that while it was the "wrong guy" it was the right 4 guys that got hit, and Jackson drilled one of the other 4 after he tossed another full beer at Artest as he was going after the wrong guy.

Clearly those 4 guys are the most responsible for pushing it beyond the boundry of just a player skirmish and their pre-brawl behavior was a warning sign.


Also, I'm sickened to see the tape of the Pacers leaving when you see people getting their plastic bottles ready to dump or thrown. This isn't "suddenly I did it" but instead "watch this, I'm gonna drill him or dowse him". There is one kid in a blue shirt who pours his full soda on them, and some lady who throws a CAP ON MOSTLY FULL BOTTLE. Say what you will about plastic bottles but if they are even half full with the cap on that's a hard object when you throw it (not drop mind you, but whip at a person).

To me that's just as shameful as anything that happened all night.

 

[Brandon_T]

I do find it kinda funny that Artest will lay on the scorers table after being physically challenged by Ben, but will go after the little bitch in the stands for getting him wet.

This whole thing is rediculous from the fans, players, coaches, and security standpoint. I think that Saunders comments on ESPN tonight are a bit stupid, you get whats coming to you he said.

I understand that players are real emotional during these games, but just get off the table and go to the bench, let security then eject the people. I have been to plenty of Pistons games since the days of the Silverdome, and I see fans ejected all the time. In fact, when I was sitting in the 11th row a couple years ago, some courtside fans were ejected.

The Palace is a fine facility, and Mr. Davidson and Joe Dumars are class acts, it is a shame some of the comments that have been made tonight directed toward them. This starts with the fans, and yes I suppose, an overcharged Ben Wallace. I don't think neither Seth, Scott or myself thought there wouldn't be a fight in the series eventually, but it should have stayed on the court, and Artest and Wallace should have just duked it out and got it over with, Pacers win the game.

Earlier I was pissed that the next game against Indy in Detroit wasnt until March, but now, I think its a good idea. I am going to bed now and am really just sick of this already, and this will go on all week.

 

[Seth Paxton]

I agree Brandon, although somewhat ironically the next game, here in Indy, is on XMAS. As I said before, I got my tickets the day they went on sale. Its going to be a weird vibe.

I also think it would be a damn shame if Ben and then a fan's reaction cost the Pacers their season. Overreaction or not, they were reactions not initiations.

Just imagine if it had been in Indy instead and it was Wallace getting hit with the beer and going after the guy (I mean he was pretty pissed already). Then, say, Sheed (not known for great behavior at all times) jumps in to defend him and slugs his buddy, then the Pistons lose a bunch of guys to suspension.

I could see how the Pistons would do it, and honestly I would hate for that to drastically affect the season.

Hell, you here some talk now that lets you imagine ice hockey glass separating the players and fans, and the fact that anyone would think that way is a sad comment on fandom in general. It's not like this is the first thing by any stretch.


Also, Brandon (and Scott) I think you know that I really like your team and love the type of ball they play. That's one of my favorite things about the rivalry. I feel like all of those good things have just been stolen from me and the games will never be about Rip and Reggie running screens or Foster and Big Ben fighting for rebounds, great team defense and smart basketball.

Now we have Knicks/Heat part 2.

I will say that I recall West people saying the West was as tough as the East. Um, I think the East just made its ugly point quite clearly.

 

[Kirk Tsai]

Don't you just love it when aggressive masculinity is celebrated to the extent of calling others who do not follow the same code of behavior deragatory names?

 

[Brandon_T]

Kirk, you apparently haven't seen how Ostertag doesn't have problems pushing smaller guys around, but as soon as someone his own size steps to him, be backs down. Maybe you should be careful about trying to attack Seth and myself before you know all the facts.

You don't even participate in regular discussion in this thread, but you stop by to ostersize us for a comment of which you obviously don't know the whole story. Pretty comical.

 

[Robert Crawford]

We're not going there, so let's cease with the personal comments directed towards other members.







Crawdaddy