My first "serious" camera: Looking for thoughts on Canon EOS Rebel T2i or better (1 Viewer)

[Bryan X]

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina


And hopefully an as-yet-unannounced prime 35mm or 50mm EF-S lens. All of Canon's primes are EF only and of course on the crop factor of the 7D and Rebel series, a 35mm = 56mm and a 50mm = 80mm.

Even an EF-S 35mm lens will be 56mm on a crop. With EF-S lenses you still have to factor in the crop just as you would with an EF lens.

 

[Carlo_M]

Thanks for that clarification Bryan. I could never get a straight answer on that. I wonder why they don't just factor in the multiplier since the EF-S lenses only work with the 1.6X crop cameras?


So by that math the EF 24mm and 35mm lenses are the ones I want. However there is a huge price and max aperture gap between the L lenses (both at f/1.4 and costing $1479 and $1749) and the non-L lenses (f/2.8 @ $359 for the 24mm and f/2 @ $319 for the 35mm).


What I'd like to see is a 24mm f/1.8 or f/2 for about $500-$600, and a 35mm f/1.8 for about $500. I'd spring for either one in a heartbeat, especially if they had USM.

 

[JohnRice]

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina

I wonder why they don't just factor in the multiplier since the EF-S lenses only work with the 1.6X crop cameras?


...


What I'd like to see is a 24mm f/1.8 or f/2 for about $500-$600, and a 35mm f/1.8 for about $500. I'd spring for either one in a heartbeat, especially if they had USM.

Because a 24mm lens is a 24mm lens, not something else. Comparative focal lengths have always depended on the size of the sensor or film. Just one of those many things a person needs to know in order to understand photography. A 50mm lens on 35mm film is equivalent to a 75mm lens on 6x4.5 cm and a 105mm on 6x9 cm and 180mm on 4x5. Notice I said equivalent, not equal, because they are not equal since as you move up sensor or film size, you get less depth of field when all other things are equivalent. As time passes, comparisons to 35mm film lenses make less sense and it is unlikely there will ever be a "standard" format like that again. Another reason they don't "just factor in the multiplier" is because other lenses work on both the smaller and full frame sensor cameras, and the smaller sensors are not the same size for all manufacturers, so "just factoring it in", would cause more confusion that is would solve. "Is this lens really 24mm or is that the factored focal length?" Plus it would force the manufacturers to put a focal length on the lens that it actually was incorrect. Again, a 24mm lens is a 24mm lens.


I doubt you'll see any of those lenses anytime soon. Increasing the maximum aperture increases the cost of the lens at a high rate, and the only way to keep the cost lower would be to make them incapable of covering full frame. Since the trend is towards more full frame cameras, not fewer, I don't see that kind of lens becoming common at all.

 

[Carlo_M]

Just to be clear, when I asked why they don't factor in the multiplier, I was talking only about the EF-S lenses. To my knowledge, those *only work with the 1.6X crop cameras and not on the full frames (and I don't think they work with the APS-H 1.3X crop 1D series). I get what your saying about the EF lenses, a 35mm needs to be labeled as such since the EF lenses fit on full frame, 1.3X and 1.6X cameras.


Since the EF-S can only go on the 1.6X I think it would make it easier to label those "equivalents" since most people who use a crop camera know that what they want is the FOV of a 35mm (which they are familiar with through experience) but then have to take the extra step of figuring out what that equates by dividing 35mm by 1.6. Again, for EF lenses that makes sense, but for EF-S they should cut out that extra step and make it easier for the end user since the EF-S don't work with non 1.6X crop cameras.

Originally Posted by JohnRice

Another reason they don't "just factor in the multiplier" is because these lenses work on both the smaller and full frame sensor cameras, and the smaller sensors are not the same size for all manufacturers, so it can't "just be factored in", since the same lens actually yields a different field of view depending on the camera it is put on.

 

[JohnRice]

Carlo, I clarified my post, probably after you started responding. I suspect, for one, it is a legal thing. It would require the manufacturer to put an incorrect focal length on the lens. If the lens is 24mm, I expect they are required to call it 24mm. Now, of course, maybe they could put a comparative focal length as well. I really think it just makes more sense to label them all correctly and the camera owner simply knows the lens factor of their camera.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Carlo, I am actually glad that Canon does not include the 1.6x crop factor in its labeling of EF-S lenses. I have become used to how the different focal lengths work on a crop sensor, and do not want to have another factor to think about when grabbing a lens -- is it an EF or EF-S?


Like Bryan, I started with a Canon 350D (aka Rebel XT) and a Sigma 17-70mm lens. I then went on a lens buying and upgrading spree over the next couple of years before upgrading to a 40D body. My kit now includes the 40D, Canon EF-S 10-22mm, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, Canon EF 70-200mmL f/4 IS, and Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 lenses (I also have the 50mm f/1.8, but never use it).


My next addition will be something longer than 200mm for wildlife -- I used to own the 70-300mm IS lens, but sold it when upgrading to the 70-200mmL, which works well with a 1.4TC to give me 280mm. I will probably end up with the Canon 100-400mmL IS, although I am considering the Sigma 150-500mm OS and Sigma 120-400mm OS lenses due to price. As for bodies, I would love a Canon 5D MKII, but would also have to replace my two EF-S lenses, so I will probably eventually end up with a 7D and keep the 40D as a backup.


Here is probably the best fireworks shot I got at Niagara Falls, followed by a night shot of the American Falls. I am still editing the photos from this trip (it was just last week), so they may need a little tweaking yet.

 

[Carlo_M]

Ok, I'm prepared to give up on the EF-S "equivalent" labeling. Both Scott and John bring up good points.


I still would like to see a fixed lens in the 24mm and 35mm range between the current L options and the sub $400 options. They were able to do it for the 50mm (f/1.2L USM = $1619 f/1.4 USM = $389, f/1.8 = $100). Even the 1.4 has USM at that price range. Using this model, I would hope they do something similar for the 24 and 35, like this:


24 L f/1.4 USM = $1749 (currently exists)

24 f/2.8 = $359 (currently exists)

[COLOR= rgb(0, 128, 0)]24 f/2 USM = $600 (proposed gap filler)[/COLOR]


35 L f/1.4 USM = $1479 (currently exists)

35 f/2 = $319 (currently exists)

[COLOR= rgb(0, 128, 0)]35 f/1.8 USM = $600 (proposed gap filler)[/COLOR]


Maybe it's a pipe dream, I'm not a lens designer so I don't know the financials and logistics behind this, but seeing what they were able to do for the 50mm range I would hope this is within their capability.


For the record, I'm happy with my 17-55 f/2.8 performance, but man is that thing a load! I'd love to be able to get similar performance from a fixed lens, which weighs less, without having to go into L range money.


Scott - great shots!

 

[Ronald Epstein]

So I went to BestBuy today to look at both cameras which turned
out to be a far better experience than I imagined it would. The

salespeople were busy with other people which gave me the

opportunity to pick up and hold both the Nikon D90 and Canon T2i

cameras without anyone bothering me.


So here are my impressions....


I first picked up the Canon T2i. It felt ultra-light. More like a toy.

The lens that it came with the camera also looked cheap.


I then picked up the Nikon D90 which had the 18-105mm lens attached.

What a difference. The Nikon felt solid, like a machine. It was also

noticeably more heavy though I don't know how much the 18-105 lens

was contributing to that. If I purchase this camera I am just buying
the body and taking Sam Posten up on his 18-55 lens offer.


So, holding both cameras it definitely seemed to me that the D90

was a more durable camera rather than a lightweight toy.


The only thing that is bothering me about the D90 at this point is

that the technology in it is now two years old and about to be

replaced by a newer version (rumored end of Summer). If I buy

the Canon T2i I have newer technology and 1080p video capability.

The video isn't a deal breaker here.

Finally, I own a Canon Speedlight. Buying the Nikon I would have

to buy a new $225 light. However, I am saving money via Sam's offer.


Is the D90 going to be a respectable camera 4 years from now?

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I cannot offer advise on the Nikon D90, but I can tell you that both the pros and cons of the Canon Rebel line are its size. Some people like the smaller form factor, while others feel that the smaller form factor makes it more cumbersome to use. Personally, I fall into the latter category and is one of the main reasons why I upgraded to the Canon 40D a few years ago. Canon's xxD line (20D, 30D, 40D, 50D) have additional controls that make it much easier to shoot with in the manual modes, IMO.


So, the Canon 50D would probably be a better body to compare with the Nikon D90.

 

[Carlo_M]

Agree with Scott. The D90 is really competing with the 50D line not the Rebel T2i(550D) line. The reason the prices are similar now is exactly the fact that the D90 is 2 years old and in need of a refresh and the T2i is brand spanking new with 1080p HD video capability.


Not to muddy the waters even more, and you know I'm not a "waiting game" kind of guy, but the 50D has long been due for a refresh and several of the camera forums are hearing rumor of a 60D "coming soon".


Having gone from a "toy" weighted XSi to a "tank like" 7D (can't imagine what the 1D series feel like), I can say there are plenty of times I miss the weight of the XSi. But I love the weather sealing, 19 point cross-type focus, 8FPS shooting and overall solid feel of the 7D so I'm willing to put up with the added weight.


Also, don't be always judge a lens by the weight. More often than not weight does equal a better lens, but not always. An example, my 7D came with an EF 28-135 IS lens which is nearly as heavy as my EF-S 17-55. However the 28-135 is a lot softer throughout the focal range at all apertures, and exhibits moderate to severe chromatic aberration at the ends. You'd feel both lenses and think they were similarly built and perform similarly, but there's a reason why the 17-55 costs over a grand and the 28-135 is less than half that and comes as a kit lens option.

 

[JohnRice]

Ron, it depends on how concerned you are with having the very latest tech. It's not unheard of for an "improved" model to be a step back in several ways from the previous model. Genuine improvements in sensors, which is really all that counts, seems to have stabilized. I wasn't going to bring this up, but as it turns out you kind of brought it up yourself. Sometimes when a new model comes out the previous model is available for a limited time on a great closeout. Last spring I bought a brand new Nikon D200 for $600! A higher model but older tech than the D90, but what do I know, I think it's a great camera. Since it seems the D90 replacement should be along soon, there may be some real deals coming, or the D90 may just disappear. Sam probably has more info about that than me.


And yes, it is good you at least took a look at the bodies. You saw the difference between a model directed at people looking only at specs and one built more for actual use. The D5000 is probably built more like the Rebel. I forget myself sometimes.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Carlo,


You are muddying the waters further.


What do you think the new 60D would be comparable to?


Does it have the potential of being a better camera than

the Nikon D90 or the Rebel t2i?

 

[JohnRice]

Ron, as a former co-worker (from Texas, with a serious drawl) used to say. "I think you better give up photography and take up drinking."


I hope you enjoy whatever you decide on, assuming everyone allows you to.

 

[Carlo_M]

Again, the rumored 60D will be a replacement for the 50D. It will be superior to the T2i (in Canon's line) and would be a competitor with the D90's replacement (which is overdue as well, but I don't follow Nikon as closely so I don't have info on that). It would likely sit between the T2i and the 7D. Here are my [COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]totally bogus wild guesses [/COLOR]as to what the 60D would have:

• Either 19 autofocus points with 9 cross-type, or 9 autofocus points with all cross-type (currently what's on the50D). I say this because the 7D has 19 point all cross-type autofocus points, the T2i has 9 points with cross type center point, so I'm going to guess it's going to be in between the two.
• Same/similar sensor to the T2i and 7D. Canon is very hush hush about whether they're the same, and enthusiasts sites are split, some claiming they're the same, some claiming they're not. Canon's word is "they're not exactly the same" FWIW.
• 1080p movie mode (and other resolutions, currently no movie mode in the 50D)
• Partial weather sealing - less than the 7D, more than the T2i (which has none).
• A body build closer to the 7D in size, less in weight due to less sealing
• 6.3FPS shooting (7D=8, T2i=3.7) - I know this is the same as the current 50D but if they match the 7D then they will cannibalize those sales.

Again, all hearsay and rumor and I don't profess to know anything concrete about this Sasquatch of a camera. And likely it will be priced at the $1100 price point.

 

[Sam Posten]

I've played the waiting game a few times, it's fun and frustrating. If you are willing to pay list price (and more!) to get the latest and greatest you can sometimes get lucky and find exactly what you think you want. Only until you get it in the field will you know if that's true or not.

The problem with waiting? Is that if you wait until an announcement there's always rumors of something newer in a different line or from a competitor. If you wait for actual availability that's even worse.

As others note this isn't just a one time purchase if you get serious about it. There's always new toys, lenses, bodies, books, seminars, printers and training classes to follow once you get into it. Don't try to make it PERFECT from the start, it doesn't work that way.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by JohnRice



But seriously, Ron, like John points out, this game will never end until you figure out what you actually want/need and commit to it (and simply find satisfaction in what you have) -- don't just go chasing after whizz-bang specs and features. FWIW, I'm still using my D200 just fine since getting it during its initial release some 4.5 years ago. Sure, it doesn't have the latest-and-greatest tech anymore, but it still performs like it always has, which is usually plenty for my needs -- ok, yeah, I'd love to replace the sensor for better low light PQ, but that aspect seems to have stabilized now w/ the current APS-crop bodies, so that's not something you'd need to worry about (as John mentioned).


Remember. You're basically just starting out -- and you haven't even decided how far (and/or what directions) you'd want to go w/ photography. Actually, if you aren't in a hurry to buy something, I would recommend learning the basics w/ your Canon G6 (and making the most of it) *before* you decide what to do for a DSLR system -- that's basically what I suggested earlier. And then, when you're good and ready and have actual need for a DSLR, get what matches your needs w/ some room to grow.


Is there some sort of deadline for making a decision? Are there a whole series of events coming up that you want/need to cover, etc? Make sure you give yourself some time to learn the basics and to learn to use the gear before those events. Also, there is often more than one way to get something done. Don't just assume throwing more $ into the latest-and-greatest is necessarily the best way.


Besides, as others have mentioned, there are plenty of other things to consider besides the camera body itself, not least of which is your photography skills, etc.


_Man_

 

[Carlo_M]

I agree with Sam in that I too hate the waiting game, and prefer not to do it. That said, of your current camera options, the D90/T2i/50D, 2 of the 3 are [over]due for an upgrade. The T2i is the only one that's a recent release. Just like with Macs, I avoid buying one when the cycle for refresh is nearing, unless I absolutely have to have one right then (which is never the case). And then, when a new Mac comes out, I buy knowing that I'll have 12-18 months before the next opportunity for upgraditis.


If the 50D and D90 were newer (i.e. less than 12 months on the market) I'd say just pick one and be happy. But both are around 2 years old and Nikon/Canon have settled into a 1.5-2 year cycle for their products (more frequently for the Rebel line).

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

BTW, isn't the D300s replacement due yet? I'd love to do what John did and pick up a discontinued D300s for $600.

Actually, if Nikon were to follow their previous trend, they would probably put out a D90s w/ minimal changes and a more substantial D300s replacement to inherit some of the latest whizz-bang tech from the D3 pro line before passing some of those down to the D90s replacement. And the fact they haven't done a D90s yet probably says something about how good the D90 already is.


And to be honest, on the Canon side, the updates are often very minimal, so I definitely would not set your hopes to high for the 60D -- they'd certainly want to keep a good distance from the less-than-1-yo 7D (and whatever's its eventual successor).


But honestly, I don't see what either one can actually do for substantial improvements short of bringing fullframe prices down some more. I supposed they can keep working on the video capabilities on these cameras while making minor updates...


_Man_

 

[JohnRice]

Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong

_Man_

If anyone ever sees the D700 on closeout in the 1K area. Let me know!!!

 

[Sam Posten]

But John, you have a perfectly serviceable D200! =)


And I'm guilty of this too. I'm waiting for the D700 replacement myself to get the most out of my 14-25, high ISO work and hopefully a 1080P video mode that at least matches what Canon has on the market. Saving pennies, by the time I have enough to get something in the D700 family the replacement should be a reality. For me, the video work is more than just a nice to have, I would be using it regularly if it was high enough quality.